The eternal nature of the Qur'an...please help me understand?

[Emad]

JKirkLVNV:

I believe that he said that he asked the question of Moslems, but still had questions about it. I assumed it was open for anyone. As for the eternal destiny of Moslems, I would refer you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is at least one on-line version.

I already know the answer. I was told it by many Christians. However that is not the topic of this thread. What I was trying to tell you was when you said the Quran is not part of God, where you saying that is what Muslims believe it is? Or was that your own personal belief?

 

[dennisknapp]

JKirkLVNV:

Dennis:

With respect, the Quaran is entirely seperate from God, and has very little or nothing to do with Him. Thus, it is not eternal.

I’m all for respectful dialogue with Muslims, but the end result can only be a polite agreement to disagree and an effort at working together in common decency on humanitarian projects. That should be enough. We differ as to the Person of Jesus Christ (you brought up the Logos, the Divine Word, which we believe to be Himself, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity) and situation will not change unless either the Church alters Its teaching or Islam alters its. We should just face that fact. In fact, in another thread, Moslems mention Shrik or shirk, which they described as the sin of believing that God has a partner or a familial relationship. We believe (and some of the saints died for this reason) that God does most certainly have such a relationship: He has a Son. They say that those dying in this belief are doomed to Hell. How do we go about getting around it?

I understand that there are great differences between the two faiths.

My question has to do with the nature of the Qur’an is Islamic teaching and how it relates to the understanding of the Logos in Christian theology. I find the two teaching to be similar in many ways. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying they are similar in what is taught by them, i.e., the teaching of the Qur’an and that of Jesus in the New Testament, but in the basic understanding of the Eternal Word of God. To Christians, this is the Logos and is the Second Person of the Divine Trinity. To the Muslim, this is the Qur’an.

My question deals with how the Muslim’s can claim the Qur’an’s eternal, seperate nature and still hold that there exist only One eternal entity.

Peace

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Emad:

I already know the answer. I was told it by many Christians. However that is not the topic of this thread. What I was trying to tell you was when you said the Quran is not part of God, where you saying that is what Muslims believe it is? Or was that your own personal belief?

It’s Catholic teaching, not personal belief, though I personally adhere to it. I would refer you to the document ***Domine Jesus, ***which you can locate on the Holy See’s website.

 

[dennisknapp]

Emad:

No it is not. You are making it confusing for yourself. God is eternal and all His characteristics are eternal. What I mean when I said it is part of His speech is that God said other things. He spoke to other Prophets and sent them His words as well.

For example I can say something to you now, and say something to someone else tomorrow and both of them are still my speech.

But you are temporal, and once you speak those word are now in time and therefore are temporal too. The Qur’an is eternal, as well as exists in time, yes? If it exists in time and eternality it can longer be a part of God, but seperate, just as your words would be from you.

Peace

 

[Emad]

dennisknapp:

But you are temporal, and once you speak those word are now in time and therefore are temporal too. The Qur’an is eternal, as well as exists in time, yes? If it exists in time and eternality it can longer be a part of God, but seperate, just as your words would be from you.

Peace

No the Quran is not temporal. The Quran does not exist in time. It is the eternal speech of God.

 

[Emad]

JKirkLVNV:

It’s Catholic teaching, not personal belief, though I personally adhere to it. I would refer you to the document ***Domine Jesus, ***which you can locate on the Holy See’s website.

Thank you. I misunderstood you and thought you were attributing that belief to Muslims.

 

[dennisknapp]

Emad:

No the Quran is not temporal. The Quran does not exist in time. It is the eternal speech of God.

Ok, as a book does it exist with God? We know that it exists as a book on earth, what of heaven?

Peace

 

[fatuma]

The Quran is not a reading book, it is a recitation; it is to be recited. It is not God’s written word; it is God’s spoken word.

wa salam

 

[Emad]

Though Muslims call the written book today Quran, its correct name is Mushaf. The Quran is not something physical. It is the speech of God. Is that too hard to understand? I have to go now and will be back later to answer your questions if no one has.

 

[dennisknapp]

Emad:

Though Muslims call the written book today Quran, its correct name is Mushaf. The Quran is not something physical. It is the speech of God. Is that too hard to understand? I have to go now and will be back later to answer your questions if no one has.

It seems this spoken Word has a life of its own apart from God. It also seems that it is physical and spiritual, hence the book on earth and speech in heaven.

But my question still remains: does it exist apart from God or in God. Saying it is God’s speech doesn’t really say anything, for God has said other things and they are not in the Qur’an.

Peace

 

[Emad]

dennisknapp:

It seems this spoken Word has a life of its own apart from God. It also seems that it is physical and spiritual, hence the book on earth and speech in heaven.

But my question still remains: does it exist apart from God or in God. Saying it is God’s speech doesn’t really say anything, for God has said other things and they are not in the Qur’an.

Peace

The Quran is not something physical. It is part of God, since it is His speech. I have said this to you already and will say it again: THE QURAN IS NOT PHYSICAL AND IT IS PART OF GOD JUST LIKE HIS KNOWLEDGE IS PART OF HIM SO IS HIS SPEECH. Please stop asking the same questions over and over. It seems to me that you are looking for a specific answer which is different from what I am telling you. In my post before this I made it clear that the Quran is not physical and now you say “It seems as if it is physical and spiritual” did you not read my last post?

 

[dennisknapp]

Emad:

The Quran is not something physical. It is part of God, since it is His speech. I have said this to you already and will say it again: THE QURAN IS NOT PHYSICAL AND IT IS PART OF GOD JUST LIKE HIS KNOWLEDGE IS PART OF HIM SO IS HIS SPEECH. Please stop asking the same questions over and over. It seems to me that you are looking for a specific answer which is different from what I am telling you. In my post before this I made it clear that the Quran is not physical and now you say “It seems as if it is physical and spiritual” did you not read my last post?

I found this on:

free-biz.org/articles/Koran#.27Created.27_vs._.27uncreated.27_Qur.27an

’Created’ vs. ‘uncreated’ Qur’an

"The most widespread varieties of Muslim theology consider the Qur’an to be eternal and ‘uncreated’. Such an approach echoes Greek philosophy, especially Plato’s theories that all ultimate realities and truths had to be eternal and unchanging. Given that Muslims believe that Biblical figures such as Moses and Jesus all preached Islam, the doctrine of an unchanging, uncreated revelation implies that contradictions between their statements according to the Qur’an and the Bible must be the result of human corruption of the earlier divine revelations.

However, some, notably including the Mu’tazili and Ismaili sects, dispute this doctrine of the uncreated Qur’an. Various liberal movements within Islam implicitly or explicitly question the doctrine of the uncreated Qur’an when they address questions related to the application of Islamic law; some contemporary Muslim thinkers, such as Reza Aslan, have argued that such laws were created by God to meet the particular needs and circumstances of Muhammad’s community.

Among the many reasons the dissenting voices have offered for their critique of the doctrine of an eternal Qur’an has been its implications to the doctrine of tawhid, or unity of God. Holding that the Qur’an is the eternal uncreated speech of Allah, speech that has always existed alongside Him, seemed to some thinkers to be a step in the direction of a more plural concept of God’s nature (which could lead to what Muslims consider the sin of shirk, the association of something with God). Concerned that this interpretation appeared to echo the Christian conception of God’s eternal Word or logos, some Muslim philosophers and theologians rejected the notion of the Qur’an’s eternality."

What do you make of this?

Peace

 

[Shenango]

dennisknapp:

Holding that the Qur’an is the eternal uncreated speech of Allah, speech that has always existed alongside Him, seemed to some thinkers to be a step in the direction of a more plural concept of God’s nature (which could lead to what Muslims consider the sin of shirk, the association of something with God). Concerned that this interpretation appeared to echo the Christian conception of God’s eternal Word or logos, some Muslim philosophers and theologians rejected the notion of the Qur’an’s eternality."

What do you make of this?

Hey Dennis,

I’m sure Emad’s going to appreciate me relieving him for a while on this one…

The Qur’an is the eternal, uncreated, direct Word of God. As Emad noted, it is a part of God, just like His knowledge is. The Qur’an does not exist apart from God, but that’s not to mean that the Qur’an is physically inside a physical manifestation of God, say, as food is in my stomach right now (and what can be inside my body, can be outside it as well). Words are not tangible, physical things. Think of the Qur’an as an attribute of God.

Muslims would balk at the characterization made by the article that you quoted, likening the Qur’an to the Logos of the Gospel of John. The concept of the Logos–God becoming flesh is idolatrous in Islam. The Qur’an is not analogous to the Logos: it is not God incarnating into Book–what’s called “imbibliation”.

All of God’s attributes are eternal, and yet no attribute of God is physically God Himself. Is this any clearer to you now?

Not too long ago, Hamza Yusuf, a reknowned American Muslim scholar and imam, did an interview with KQED radio in California where he talked extensively about the nature of the Qur’an, and understanding what it is, and what it’s not. If you yearn to understand this subject, I highly recommend you listen to the recording of this interview (you’ll need RealAudio/RealOne Player to hear it).

 

[Emad]

dennisknapp:

I found this on:

free-biz.org/articles/Koran#.27Created.27_vs._.27uncreated.27_Qur.27an

’Created’ vs. ‘uncreated’ Qur’an

"The most widespread varieties of Muslim theology consider the Qur’an to be eternal and ‘uncreated’. Such an approach echoes Greek philosophy, especially Plato’s theories that all ultimate realities and truths had to be eternal and unchanging. Given that Muslims believe that Biblical figures such as Moses and Jesus all preached Islam, the doctrine of an unchanging, uncreated revelation implies that contradictions between their statements according to the Qur’an and the Bible must be the result of human corruption of the earlier divine revelations.

However, some, notably including the Mu’tazili and Ismaili sects, dispute this doctrine of the uncreated Qur’an. Various liberal movements within Islam implicitly or explicitly question the doctrine of the uncreated Qur’an when they address questions related to the application of Islamic law; some contemporary Muslim thinkers, such as Reza Aslan, have argued that such laws were created by God to meet the particular needs and circumstances of Muhammad’s community.

Among the many reasons the dissenting voices have offered for their critique of the doctrine of an eternal Qur’an has been its implications to the doctrine of tawhid, or unity of God. Holding that the Qur’an is the eternal uncreated speech of Allah, speech that has always existed alongside Him, seemed to some thinkers to be a step in the direction of a more plural concept of God’s nature (which could lead to what Muslims consider the sin of shirk, the association of something with God). Concerned that this interpretation appeared to echo the Christian conception of God’s eternal Word or logos, some Muslim philosophers and theologians rejected the notion of the Qur’an’s eternality."

What do you make of this?

Peace

In the history of Islam, the issue about if the Quran was created or not was a big one. Many scholars have been persecuted becuase they refused to say that the Quran was created. Some of these scholars were Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, one of the establishers of one of the four schools of thought of Islamic Fiqh. Also Imam Bukhari who compiled the most authentic book on hadith. However the majority agree that the Quran is not created and that is the correct opinion.

 

[dennisknapp]

Emad:

In the history of Islam, the issue about if the Quran was created or not was a big one. Many scholars have been persecuted becuase they refused to say that the Quran was created. Some of these scholars were Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, one of the establishers of one of the four schools of thought of Islamic Fiqh. Also Imam Bukhari who compiled the most authentic book on hadith. However the majority agree that the Quran is not created and that is the correct opinion.

Who is to say it is the correct opinion? Who has the authority to determine that?

Also, why would scholars be persecuted for refusing to say the Qur’an was created?

Peace

 

[dennisknapp]

Shenango:

Hey Dennis,
The Qur’an is the eternal, uncreated, direct Word of God.

Can you not see how this is simular the Christian (or at least Greek) concept of the Logos? I know there are major differences, but there are true similarities.

Peace

 

[Emad]

dennisknapp:

Who is to say it is the correct opinion? Who has the authority to determine that?

Also, why would scholars be persecuted for refusing to say the Qur’an was created?

Peace

The Mutazala is a deviant sect and they really don’t exist today. The scholars were persecuted by the government of that time. The government was influenced by the Mutazali sect and wanted to make it official that the Quran was created. The majority of the Muslims and scholars refused to accept this.

 

[dennisknapp]

Emad:

The Mutazala is a deviant sect and they really don’t exist today. The scholars were persecuted by the government of that time. The government was influenced by the Mutazali sect and wanted to make it official that the Quran was created. The majority of the Muslims and scholars refused to accept this.

But there are Muslim scholars who claim the Qur’an is created to avoid the the Christian conception of God’s eternal Word or logos.

Peace

 

[Emad]

dennisknapp:

But there are Muslim scholars who claim the Qur’an is created to avoid the the Christian conception of God’s eternal Word or logos.

Peace

Please name them.

 

[Booklover]

Shenango:

Hey Dennis,

I’m sure Emad’s going to appreciate me relieving him for a while on this one…

The Qur’an is the eternal, uncreated, direct Word of God. As Emad noted, it is a part of God, just like His knowledge is. The Qur’an does not exist apart from God, but that’s not to mean that the Qur’an is physically inside a physical manifestation of God, say, as food is in my stomach right now (and what can be inside my body, can be outside it as well). Words are not tangible, physical things. Think of the Qur’an as an attribute of God.

How do you know that any of this is true? Where’s your proof??