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Emad
Guest
A Jinn is a creation of Allah, what is the big deal? Don’t you believe He is an ALL POWERFUL GOD and can create whatever He wants? Oh and they don’t live up your nose.
- Status
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Booklover
Guest
You just said that God IS AN ALL POWERFUL GOD, and that he can create anything he wants like jinns, but according to you he cannot be a Trinity! Wacky!:whacky:A Jinn is a creation of Allah, what is the big deal? Don’t you believe He is an ALL POWERFUL GOD and can create whatever He wants? Oh and they don’t live up your nose.
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Shenango
Guest
I don’t believe for a minute that you read the entire thing, because if you had, you’d see the miraculous nature of the Qur’an. The suicidally daring prophecy in it against the Prophet’s uncle should alone suffice as evidence to you.
I beg to differ, Jesus (PBUH) did prophecy Muhammad (PBUH) in the Bible. Read the Paraclete prophecy in John 14:16-17, 14:26, 15:26, and 16:7-15.
Christians are fond of saying that “Muhammad made it up”, but to this day they cannot back up any such claim with a workable motive. All self-serving motives that have been invented by medieval Europeans about why Muhammad (PBUH) would all of a sudden one day preach Islam (that he did it for women, wealth, power, glory…or that he was crazy etc.) have long been debunked by the Qur’an, Hadith and Sirah. That’s why no serious scholar today dares doubt Muhammad’s sincerity; and all have simply taken the position of taking his sincerity as it is, acknowledging it, but not seeking to explain how it could have been so if his message was false.He made up the whole thing, and Muslims have accepted him blindly! I suppose if something is drummed into you day in and day out you’d eventually accept it as truth. Talk of brainwashing and indoctrination!
So since you believe yourself wiser than all those scholars, Booklover, I’ll leave you to present a workable thesis as to Muhammad’s motivations.
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Emad
Guest
It is not beffitting of Him to be a Trinity. There is no proof to it. I hold this All POWERFUL GOD to be above coming down to earth and having so many shortcomings and defects like humans.
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un_dhimmi
Guest
Only according to you.
To us it is proof of the immense love that God has for his children.
To us it is proof of the immense love that God has for his children.
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Booklover
Guest
B
Booklover
Guest
Oh, we have the proof!
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un_dhimmi
Guest
Do you demand PROOF in all religious aspects ?
What’s the proof the Mohammed rode a horse and ascended to heaven, etc, etc, ?
Proof, proof, proof, lets have some of that proof.
What’s the proof the Mohammed rode a horse and ascended to heaven, etc, etc, ?
Proof, proof, proof, lets have some of that proof.
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Booklover
Guest
Sorry to disagree, but your proof is not convincing that there is anything miraculous about the Qur’an!QUOTE]
I’ve heard that argument before ad nauseam! For your information, the Paraclete, was the Holy Spirit, not Mohammed!
Sorry, but I don’t buy that! Since the Qur’an, Hadith and Sirah came from Mohammed’s own claims that’s no proof!
I’ve never said that I’m wiser than anyone but I do have common sense and I find Mohammed’s claims totally ridiculous! All it amounts to is that you believe his revelations simply because he said they’re true! That’s only his own word! I find that very unconvincing!
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Shenango
Guest
Not to you it isn’t, but that’s the point I was trying to lead you to. The evidence I provided isn’t objectively unconvincing, but only to you. The latter I’m happy to live with.
The Paraclete cannot be the Holy Spirit, because that Spirit was already at work in the world.
Well now, you can’t have it both ways my friend. If you and your friends are going to use those sources to criticize Muhammad (PBUH), then by implication you must accept them as authentic tellings of his life and works. To use those sources against him, but disallow their use in his favor is hypocrisy of the highest order.
You’re allowed your own opinion, and if you find his message unconvincing, then I’m afraid I can’t convince you. But you are surreptiously downlplaying what you said here. You find his message unconvincing, and that’s fine. But you went a huge step further and claimed that “he made it up”. Now you’ve introduced a positive claim for which you need proof, and to back up with evidence.
So I challenge you to present evidence that Muhammad (PBUH) “made it up”. Of course, it’s going to be difficult for you to do that since you don’t believe the sources we have about his life are authentic, and thus won’t be using them. So it’s like you’re starting from scratch, knowing nothing about the man.
If you cannot prove the claim you made that Muhammad (PBUH) made it up, then I demand that you withdraw it.
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Booklover
Guest
I WILL NOT TAKE BACK ANYTHING I SAID ABOUT MOHAMMED! YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMAND ME TO DO ANYTHING! AT LEAST I HAVE THE GUTS TO STAND UP TO YOU MUSLIMS WHICH NOT MANY PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM HAVE!
YOUR PROPHET WAS A FRAUD AND A CHARLATAN! I WILL NOT DEBATE WITH MUSLIMS ANY FURTHER. IT’S A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME. IF YOU THINK I’M LEAVING BECAUSE I HAVE NO PROOF OF THE LIES YOUR PROPHET MADE UP, THINK AGAIN!
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Booklover
Guest
Well, I’m back now that I got all that stuff off my chest! have the Latin temperament and am a real spitfire when anyone discredits my faith!
Okay Shenango, I’ll take back what I said about Mohammed when you stop saying that Jesus is not the Son of God, was never crucified and that there’s no such thing as the Trinity!
Okay Shenango, I’ll take back what I said about Mohammed when you stop saying that Jesus is not the Son of God, was never crucified and that there’s no such thing as the Trinity!
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Booklover
Guest
Oh so you believe in the Holy Spirit, but not in the Trinity. What you’re stating here is utter rubbish! You grab at straws to make something apply to Mohammed!
"Suddenly a sound came from Heaven, like the rush of a mighty wind… and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:2,4) (THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE PARACLETE!)
The Apostles gathered together around Mary in the upper room to receive the last gift of Christ, His Spirit, the Comforter and Advocate. With the descent and diffusion of the Holy Spirit, the heirs of Christ received the seal of their faith.
I reiterate again, THE PARACLETE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT MOHAMMED!
Mr. Senango, your WHOLE religion is based on ONE man’s words, Mohammed’s! He “claimed” that the Qur’an is the word of God, with no corroborating evidence. Why was the Qur’an dictated by an Angel, instead of God??
He couldn’t even substantiate his claims by performing any other miracles! He claimed his only miracle was the Qur’an! Really Mr. Senango! I find that very ridiculous as well as fishy! Anyone can write a book and claim it was divinely inspired. That is no proof! Then he took it upon himself to thoroughly discredit his rival, Jesus Christ, because if Jesus was the Son of God, then where would your prophet be??
I don’t have to read any Islamic apologist’s books because they’ll be filled with lies anyway. And as for Mohammed’s life! Good grief! Mohammed posed as the apostle of God, the seal of the prophets; as the destroyer of idolatry; as preacher of one true God, and the reformer of morals: while his life is marked by innumerable marriages, and great licentiousness, deeds of rapine, warfare, conquest, unmerciful butcheries, all the time invoking God’s holy name! And this is the man you serve!
Thanks for allowing me my opinion!
As to the rest, your threats don’t mean a thing to me, and neither does your “prophet.”
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Reuben_J
Guest
Well, why can’t it be the Holy Spirit? He has no beginning and no end and is not governed by space and time. It’s true that the Holy Spirit is already at work, being God Himself, but to understand the verse you have to understand the context of the events in John 16.
Even when Peter declared that Jesus is the son of the living God (Mathew 16), that knowledge was from the Father (made into reality by the Holy Spirit). The many miracles performed by Jesus were made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit.
When Jesus was living with the apostles, they were not sure his true purpose. Even if he was understood to be the Messiah, it was as a human savior to restore the Jewish kingdom and to drive the Romans out. But the longer they followed Jesus and witnessed to him, inevitably they became more dependants to him not only as a source of knowledge but as protector as well. It was Jesus who solved many problems and got them out of many predicaments.
Thus when Jesus said he would be leaving them, indicating his incoming death, the apostles were naturally anxious. But to Jesus, more were needed to be understood by them. Besides, at that moment Jesus’ mission (death and resurrection) was not completed yet. These truths could only be revealed by the Holy Spirit for them to believe.
John 16 should be understood as Jesus speaking to his disciples, warning and preparing them on the things to come. Therefore what he said to them should come to pass in their lifetime and not 600 years later where they would be already dead and gone. In the context of Jesus being always be with them, the promise of the Spirit was the promise of continuity. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
But look at what happened on the day of Pentecost (the descent of the Holy Spirit). The disciples were completely transformed – they were able to talk and understand different languages, became courageous and knowledgeable. How amazing it was when the unrefined fisherman, cowering and denying Peter was able to speak like a mighty preacher resulting in 3000 people baptized. They were even able to performed miracles the way Jesus did to demonstrate the power of the Word proclaimed.
Thus clearly the intended action of the Holy Spirit – to start the church. It is not something to come 600 years later! But now and then, after Jesus had ascended to heaven.
Looking specifically at the related verses,
**John 16:13 (GNB) When, however, the Spirit comes, who reveals the truth about God, he will lead you into all truth. He will not speak on his own authority, but will speak of what he heard and will tell you of things to come. ** [this is where Muslims claim this verse applies to Mohammad].
But read at the next verse John 16:14 He will give me glory, because he will take what I say and tell it to you.
(1) Mohammad did not take what Jesus say and give it to them. Example Matthew 16:21 (GNB), “… I will be put to death, but three days later I will be raised to life.”
(2) Mohammad did not glorify Jesus, which is contrary to what the latter said and done. Example Philippians 2:9-11(GNB) For this reason God raised him to the highest place above and gave him the name that is greater than any other name. And so, in honor of the name of Jesus, all beings in heaven, and in the world below, will fall on their knees, and will openly proclaim that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
The promise of the Holy Spirit is specifically for the disciples. Thus Mohammad could not be the promised Spirit.
Peace.
Reuben.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Now I want to address this to you, Shenango, considering I couldn’t get it from the other Muslims here.
I feel the Islamic position of the Bible prophecising the coming of Mohammad is a desperate attempt to justify Mohammad, Quran and Islam, because it is very obvious that Mohammad was not the Paraclete / Advocate.
My question is, why the need to justify him, even to this ridiculous length? To me, it is because Muhammad is contrary to the Biblical revelation despite the attempt to connect him as such.
From the discussions in this forum, the Quran is also contradictory to the way of God as understood in the Bible. Some of the examples as discussed here:-
Quran – Virgins as reward for men who go to heaven.
Bible – One does not have any bodily needs in heaven.
Thus using virgins as the carrot only appeals to humans’ want and not God’s.
Quran – Jesus did not die, did not rise from the dead.
Bible – Jesus was buried, died and risen again.
Quran – Trinity as father, son and mother.
Bible – Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How could Quran made an error on this information, if it’s not from Mohammad himself or the intentional distortion of the evil one?
If Quran is from God, it will not contradict God’s nature and its information must be accurate.
As the only source of Muhammad’s revelation was from the angel Gabriel, this makes that revelation truly suspect. Fallen angel is what we know now as Satan. He can do some of the supernatural stuff except that he is not God. He is the accuser of the brethrens, the brigand and thief, the liar and murderer, the serpent, the roaring lion, the deceiver and the principality.
He knows he is not God or Jesus, but he covets human allegiance and worship. He was created beautiful but pride made him disobey God, his creator. As a liar though he will not hesitate to take advantage of human weakness and making use of it for his own deceptive end.
It would be a piece of cake for Satan to deceive the illiterate Mohammad. Coming from a humble background and deprived childhood, he would make an easy prey for the roaring lion.
Anyway consider these possibilities. There are 3 ways that the Quranic revelation can come from :-
(1) From God
(2) From Human’ minds
(3) From the evil one.
The first possibility is unbecoming of the way of God as to how Quran was revealed. As seen from history God would not assign to a third person to deliver His Word to His prophets. Moses received it from God. And so was Abraham and so on. Angel usually acted as a messenger to warn people of the impending act of God or otherwise.
The second possibility is very real as Mohammad is a businessman and politician as well. It would be in his interest to get people to be on his side. The “stepping stone” theology demonstrates how principles can be changed to adapt to human’ interest.
The third possibility is of course not unlikely at all. Satan’s action is always to undo whatever Jesus did. In fact, it is very much like him to tell lies that Jesus is not the Son of God. In the end, at the cross Jesus achieved the victory, but this does not mean Satan will give up in spreading his lies.
His action is to deceive, oppress and eventually posses. It explains, if the third possibility is anything to go by, that he could masquerade as the good angel Gabriel, and distorted the truth of God. Remember, as serpent, how he tricked Eve by engaging the line …. Did God actually said so…? And Eve fell for it.
Before you dismiss this as insulting to Muhammad and Quran, which I don’t mean to, please address the issues mentioned. We stand for it and rebut you when you mention that the Spirit is Mohammad and Jesus is not God.
Peace.
Reuben.
I feel the Islamic position of the Bible prophecising the coming of Mohammad is a desperate attempt to justify Mohammad, Quran and Islam, because it is very obvious that Mohammad was not the Paraclete / Advocate.
My question is, why the need to justify him, even to this ridiculous length? To me, it is because Muhammad is contrary to the Biblical revelation despite the attempt to connect him as such.
From the discussions in this forum, the Quran is also contradictory to the way of God as understood in the Bible. Some of the examples as discussed here:-
Quran – Virgins as reward for men who go to heaven.
Bible – One does not have any bodily needs in heaven.
Thus using virgins as the carrot only appeals to humans’ want and not God’s.
Quran – Jesus did not die, did not rise from the dead.
Bible – Jesus was buried, died and risen again.
Quran – Trinity as father, son and mother.
Bible – Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
How could Quran made an error on this information, if it’s not from Mohammad himself or the intentional distortion of the evil one?
If Quran is from God, it will not contradict God’s nature and its information must be accurate.
As the only source of Muhammad’s revelation was from the angel Gabriel, this makes that revelation truly suspect. Fallen angel is what we know now as Satan. He can do some of the supernatural stuff except that he is not God. He is the accuser of the brethrens, the brigand and thief, the liar and murderer, the serpent, the roaring lion, the deceiver and the principality.
He knows he is not God or Jesus, but he covets human allegiance and worship. He was created beautiful but pride made him disobey God, his creator. As a liar though he will not hesitate to take advantage of human weakness and making use of it for his own deceptive end.
It would be a piece of cake for Satan to deceive the illiterate Mohammad. Coming from a humble background and deprived childhood, he would make an easy prey for the roaring lion.
Anyway consider these possibilities. There are 3 ways that the Quranic revelation can come from :-
(1) From God
(2) From Human’ minds
(3) From the evil one.
The first possibility is unbecoming of the way of God as to how Quran was revealed. As seen from history God would not assign to a third person to deliver His Word to His prophets. Moses received it from God. And so was Abraham and so on. Angel usually acted as a messenger to warn people of the impending act of God or otherwise.
The second possibility is very real as Mohammad is a businessman and politician as well. It would be in his interest to get people to be on his side. The “stepping stone” theology demonstrates how principles can be changed to adapt to human’ interest.
The third possibility is of course not unlikely at all. Satan’s action is always to undo whatever Jesus did. In fact, it is very much like him to tell lies that Jesus is not the Son of God. In the end, at the cross Jesus achieved the victory, but this does not mean Satan will give up in spreading his lies.
His action is to deceive, oppress and eventually posses. It explains, if the third possibility is anything to go by, that he could masquerade as the good angel Gabriel, and distorted the truth of God. Remember, as serpent, how he tricked Eve by engaging the line …. Did God actually said so…? And Eve fell for it.
Before you dismiss this as insulting to Muhammad and Quran, which I don’t mean to, please address the issues mentioned. We stand for it and rebut you when you mention that the Spirit is Mohammad and Jesus is not God.
Peace.
Reuben.
S
Shenango
Guest
Reuben J:
However, I’m not going to argue the Paraclete prophecy with you, because neither will you convince me, nor I you, so there’s no point.
But just briefly, I will say the Paraclete prophecy is much more complicated than how most Muslims and Christians argue it. It’s one you really have to scratch beneath the surface of the text to get at.
There’s no point in quoting the text of the Gospel of John directly today, and arguing over its meaning, for three major reasons.
The first major problem is the word the author renders “Advocate/Comforter” in Greek (“paraklytos”) doesn’t really exist as a real word at all in common usage–back then or now. It’s essentially made up. But, it’s interesting to note here that an actual Greek word very similar to it signifies exactly what Muhammad’s name means: most illustrious, the praised one etc. With that understanding, John 14:16-17 sounds very similar to a verse in the Qur’an that quotes Jesus (PBUH) as bearing news to the Children of Israel of a messenger to come after him by the name of “Ahmad”, which is a nickname for “Muhammad”, and means exactly what that similar Greek word means. This is too uncanny to be totally coincidental.
The second major problem is, as I said, that the Holy Spirit already existed with Jesus (PBUH) during his life, and with the disciples, and previously among Jewish prophets. Yet a close (and honest) reading of John 16:7-15 very clearly implies that this “Paraclete”, whoever he is, is a new character that nobody knows yet, because he hasn’t been introduced to the world yet. No matter how you cut it, that just doesn’t square with the Holy Spirit, who is already there among them.
But like I said, John is clearly trying to push this character as the Holy Spirit. He has a tradition sitting in front of him about this “most illustrious, praised one”, that he doesn’t understand…because he (the author) himself believes that Jesus (PBUH) is the end-all-be-all of prophets and messengers. So who could possibly come later? So he includes the tradition for the sake of not concealing information, but there’s a clear sense of him trying to force the character to be something he’s clearly not.
Continued in Part 2…
Obviously, we don’t feel our justifications of Muhammad (PBUH) from the Bible go to “ridiculous lengths” (not most of them anyway).
However, I’m not going to argue the Paraclete prophecy with you, because neither will you convince me, nor I you, so there’s no point.
But just briefly, I will say the Paraclete prophecy is much more complicated than how most Muslims and Christians argue it. It’s one you really have to scratch beneath the surface of the text to get at.
There’s no point in quoting the text of the Gospel of John directly today, and arguing over its meaning, for three major reasons.
- The Gospel was written late, at the earliest sixty years after Christ (PBUH), and as such, what Jesus (PBUH) says in it is not be taken as his verbatim speech.
- The Gospel (text) contains a thick layer of Greek metaphysics through which everything said, even Jesus’ lines, is screened. Jesus (PBUH) was a Semitic Jew, and he most definitely didn’t say lines about people dwelling in him, and him in them, and God in people, and people consuming his flesh and blood. This way of abstract thinking about the “the Logos”, the soul, the body and man’s relation to God is foreign to Judaism (and also Islam) and Semitic metahphysics in general. So this Gospel requires a very in-depth analysis getting underneath the superficial level of the plain text to re-construct a picture of how the Jewish Jesus (PBUH) might have said some of the things attributed to him.
- Anyone who reads John should recognize that Jesus (PBUH) is being presented filtered through the eyes of an author with an agenda to portray Jesus (PBUH) and his words in a certain manner, to bring across to the reader the view the author would like he or she to believe. In other words, there’s a lot of interpolation on the author’s part.
The first major problem is the word the author renders “Advocate/Comforter” in Greek (“paraklytos”) doesn’t really exist as a real word at all in common usage–back then or now. It’s essentially made up. But, it’s interesting to note here that an actual Greek word very similar to it signifies exactly what Muhammad’s name means: most illustrious, the praised one etc. With that understanding, John 14:16-17 sounds very similar to a verse in the Qur’an that quotes Jesus (PBUH) as bearing news to the Children of Israel of a messenger to come after him by the name of “Ahmad”, which is a nickname for “Muhammad”, and means exactly what that similar Greek word means. This is too uncanny to be totally coincidental.
The second major problem is, as I said, that the Holy Spirit already existed with Jesus (PBUH) during his life, and with the disciples, and previously among Jewish prophets. Yet a close (and honest) reading of John 16:7-15 very clearly implies that this “Paraclete”, whoever he is, is a new character that nobody knows yet, because he hasn’t been introduced to the world yet. No matter how you cut it, that just doesn’t square with the Holy Spirit, who is already there among them.
But like I said, John is clearly trying to push this character as the Holy Spirit. He has a tradition sitting in front of him about this “most illustrious, praised one”, that he doesn’t understand…because he (the author) himself believes that Jesus (PBUH) is the end-all-be-all of prophets and messengers. So who could possibly come later? So he includes the tradition for the sake of not concealing information, but there’s a clear sense of him trying to force the character to be something he’s clearly not.
Continued in Part 2…
S
Shenango
Guest
…Continued from Part 1
As for Muhammad (PBUH) glorifying Jesus (PBUH), this he did by correcting the lies people told about him (that he claimed to be God etc.), and restoring his honor as a prophet from the disgrace of blashphemy and idolatry.
As for taking what is of Jesus’ and giving it to people, this I believe is a reference to the common thread of prophetic teachings running across all the prophets. Muhammad (PBUH) even prayed as Jesus (PBUH) did, and greeted people as Jesus (PBUH) did (“Peace be upon you”).
However, I realize that the Paraclete prophecy can never be as strong as some of the others, because it’s not straightforward, and takes some understanding of Greek language, metaphysics, and how Gospels were written etc. And that’s why I won’t debate its merits. It’s because you have to have enough knowledge to be able to debate my in-depth analysis.
Having said that, nowhere does the Qur’an say Christians took Mary as a literal god. It says people took her in effect as a goddess, and the meaning of that is that they practically worshipped her (anything you worship becomes your god, whether or not you acknowledge it as such with your lips). Now, you will say: “But Catholics don’t worship Mary!!!”. I’m well aware of this fact…but the Islamic definition of worship is more expansive than what you’re used to. Catholic consecrations to Mary, and prayers to her to protect you (which I assume you’d be aware of) are tantamount to worship of Mary. If you ask anyone but God Himself to protect you (or bless you, or keep you), then you’ve committed idolatry and taken that other object (whether it be Mary, or whoever or whatever else) as your god.
So please save your criticism for someone ignorant, or otherwise correct it. Muhammad (PBUH) knew well what he was talking about, and Muslims are totally unapologetic about, much less to be embarassed or shamed by it. I repeat: IT IS NO ERROR!
The Bible is God’s Word–>the Qur’an disagrees with the Bible–>therefore the Qur’an is not God’s Word.
The reason circular reasoning is called “begging the question” is because you’re begging the question: And whoever said the Bible was God’s Word to begin with?"
I would challenge you, and say that it isn’t.
…Continued in Part 3…
As for Muhammad (PBUH) glorifying Jesus (PBUH), this he did by correcting the lies people told about him (that he claimed to be God etc.), and restoring his honor as a prophet from the disgrace of blashphemy and idolatry.
As for taking what is of Jesus’ and giving it to people, this I believe is a reference to the common thread of prophetic teachings running across all the prophets. Muhammad (PBUH) even prayed as Jesus (PBUH) did, and greeted people as Jesus (PBUH) did (“Peace be upon you”).
However, I realize that the Paraclete prophecy can never be as strong as some of the others, because it’s not straightforward, and takes some understanding of Greek language, metaphysics, and how Gospels were written etc. And that’s why I won’t debate its merits. It’s because you have to have enough knowledge to be able to debate my in-depth analysis.
And where did you get this lie from? Your Catholic friends? First of all, the word “Trinity” itself cannot be found in either the Bible or the Qur’an, so I vehemently reject your assertion that the Bible or the Qur’an teach what the Trinity is or is not.
Having said that, nowhere does the Qur’an say Christians took Mary as a literal god. It says people took her in effect as a goddess, and the meaning of that is that they practically worshipped her (anything you worship becomes your god, whether or not you acknowledge it as such with your lips). Now, you will say: “But Catholics don’t worship Mary!!!”. I’m well aware of this fact…but the Islamic definition of worship is more expansive than what you’re used to. Catholic consecrations to Mary, and prayers to her to protect you (which I assume you’d be aware of) are tantamount to worship of Mary. If you ask anyone but God Himself to protect you (or bless you, or keep you), then you’ve committed idolatry and taken that other object (whether it be Mary, or whoever or whatever else) as your god.
So please save your criticism for someone ignorant, or otherwise correct it. Muhammad (PBUH) knew well what he was talking about, and Muslims are totally unapologetic about, much less to be embarassed or shamed by it. I repeat: IT IS NO ERROR!
This is called circular reasoning, my friend. You’re essentially saying the following:
The Bible is God’s Word–>the Qur’an disagrees with the Bible–>therefore the Qur’an is not God’s Word.
The reason circular reasoning is called “begging the question” is because you’re begging the question: And whoever said the Bible was God’s Word to begin with?"
I would challenge you, and say that it isn’t.
You’re about 1,400 years too late for this theory. You must think the Meccan idolaters were morons or something…you give them too little credit. They made this criticism of the Qur’an during Muhammad’s lifetime, and in his very presence. Had you read it, you’d know there’s more than one verse of the Qur’an that explicitly refutes such claims, and in any case, how could something from Satan lambaste the Devil as much as the Qur’an does? The Qur’an says Satan will be the first one in Hell on Judgement Day, and that any one who follows him will end up there as well. The line in the Gospels where Jesus (PBUH) talks about the impossibility of “Satan being divided against himself” is pertinent here.
…Continued in Part 3…
S
Shenango
Guest
…Continued from Part 2…
As for politics, the Arabs thought 1,400 years ago, just as you do today, that Muhammad (PBUH) certainly must have been motivated by desire for power. That’s why, in their desperation, they promised to make him King over them, ruler and lord of all of them, if only he would quit preaching Islam. Why didn’t Muhammad (PBUH) take their offer?
This is just not factually true. Moses (PBUH) was the only who God spoke to directly. All others were inspired by angels, including Muhammad (PBUH). In any case, angels in Islam have no free will of their own, so they’re merely vessels for the word they carry. Technically they’re middle-men, yes, but effectively it’s the same thing as God Himself doing the talking, because as I said, angles can do nothing on their own, but God speaks through them. It isn’t like with a human middle man, who can change or channel the message.
Muhammad (PBUH) was a businessman who lost all his business dealings with his people and was shunned by them for preaching Islam. And when the Prophet (PBUH) died, he was nearly penniless. From this standpoint, preaching Islam was a bad business move (to put it mildly). Muhammad (PBUH) destroyed his family’s prosperity, wealth and class among Meccan society.
As for politics, the Arabs thought 1,400 years ago, just as you do today, that Muhammad (PBUH) certainly must have been motivated by desire for power. That’s why, in their desperation, they promised to make him King over them, ruler and lord of all of them, if only he would quit preaching Islam. Why didn’t Muhammad (PBUH) take their offer?
It’s the ONLY likely possibility! Look, if you don’t want to accept Islam, my sincere advice to you would be to stop coming up with possible motives for Muhammad’s preaching. They’ve all been tried before, and all have failed…most of them within the Prophet’s own lifetime. This is why the best scholars who remain non-Muslims today have wisely quit trying to find a workable hypothesis of Muhammad’s motives. They merely present him as he was, and leave it at that, because they’ve realized that his sincerity was beyond question, and his impact incalculable. I suggest you quit too.
D
dennisknapp
Guest
Why not believe Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism? He was sincere too, and his follows number in the millions.
He claimed to be a prophet as well…
You are saying that we must believe Muhammad because he said we should? I don’t get it?
He lived 500 years after the time of Christ and far removed from the Church He started. If one studies Church history one will notice the influence of heretical Christian beliefs in the teachings of Muhammad, which are consistant with the “Christian” groups existing around Mecca and Medina at the time.
Peace
R
Reuben_J
Guest
John 16 is pretty obvious. It does not need those dissections as what you did. Whether it is in Greek or Aramaic, we don’t have any problem understanding it. But it’s pretty obvious too, that you are trying very hard to create doubts from this passage, and as I said, it does not work.
Jesus was speaking to the disciples and these words were uttered by him to the disciples. The Spirit would come to them after Jesus’ death. It could not be anymore simpler.
The author was inspired by the Holy Spirit and one would not take the Bible like any other History or Philosophy book. There is no error and doubt in the Bible and you have to understand it as such. You would do the same to Quran too.
I’m using the Bible to rebut you on this Mohammad thing, because you used the Bible to say that it prophecises the coming of Mohammad.
Peace.
God bless you.
Reuben
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