The eternal nature of the Qur'an...please help me understand?

[Shenango]

Reuben J:

I can see where this leads to, and already I’m beginning to feel tired, because I am going to ask you which parts of the Bible is corrupted and can you please show me the uncorrupted version … ? Which words were expunged or replaced and when did it happened and who did it… ?.

Christians often misunderstand what Muslims ultimately mean by Bible corruption. I don’t blame them, because some Muslims also misunderstand the concept themselves.

Bible corruption in this discussion does not refer to physical changes made to the text, such as deletions, additions or re-wording by scribes. Though, admittedly, the Bible has in the past suffered from this sort of thing, none of these are really relevant as far as what we’re talking about.

Instead, learn to look at the Bible as a series of oral traditions of religion written down on paper by scribes. Some of these traditions, over time, grew corrupted by people’s embellishments and additions, in the same manner as a folktale. It was only after this corruption, that these oral traditions made it into the text that we today call the Bible.

So, for the most part, Muslims are not saying that the Bible was ever once identical to the Qur’an, and someone went back and changed it so that it isn’t. We are saying that the Bible was a corrupt accounting of events from the first time it was laid down on paper.

Some authentic traditions (which are consonant to Islam) have been preserved in the Bible, but others have been corrupted with myths and pagan legends.

Where the Bible agrees with the Qur’an, that is a tradition that has been authentically preserved. Where it disagrees with the Qur’an, that is a corrupt accounting. Where it neither disagrees or agrees, it could be either or. I hope this helps.

 

[Reuben_J]

Shenango:

Christians often misunderstand what Muslims ultimately mean by Bible corruption. I don’t blame them, because some Muslims also misunderstand the concept themselves.

Bible corruption in this discussion does not refer to physical changes made to the text, such as deletions, additions or re-wording by scribes. Though, admittedly, the Bible has in the past suffered from this sort of thing, none of these are really relevant as far as what we’re talking about.

Instead, learn to look at the Bible as a series of oral traditions of religion written down on paper by scribes. Some of these traditions, over time, grew corrupted by people’s embellishments and additions, in the same manner as a folktale. It was only after this corruption, that these oral traditions made it into the text that we today call the Bible.

So, for the most part, Muslims are not saying that the Bible was ever once identical to the Qur’an, and someone went back and changed it so that it isn’t. We are saying that the Bible was a corrupt accounting of events from the first time it was laid down on paper.

Some authentic traditions (which are consonant to Islam) have been preserved in the Bible, but others have been corrupted with myths and pagan legends.

Where the Bible agrees with the Qur’an, that is a tradition that has been authentically preserved. Where it disagrees with the Qur’an, that is a corrupt accounting. Where it neither disagrees or agrees, it could be either or. I hope this helps.

Nothing doing.

I already knew you couldn’t find and present to me what I asked of you. This type of discussion I heard many times already from Muslims. In the end we’re really moving in circle. This is an exercise in futility. Eventually, it will be just your words against mine.

Sorry I’m not interested in this wrangling.

 

[hawk]

Shenango:

Christians often misunderstand what Muslims ultimately mean by Bible corruption. I don’t blame them, because some Muslims also misunderstand the concept themselves.

As a Catholic, My spiritual life took on a deeper meaning, I came to realise that Allah(swt) made us all unique.

I found islam a dead faith, dead in practice and dead in adherents.
There is a one size fits all approach to spirituality.
There is a clear cut definition of Halal, Haraam, and Mukhroo.
I should know, I grew up in a pious Muslim house.

But as Christians, we are not just saved by Christ, we re-aquire our divine nature, and we are called to live it out to the best of our abilities.

So for lent, give up that which you most crave, and if that is not enough give up something more.
Take up your cross and follow Jesus.

In islam too you give up all things haraam. Certainly keeping roza the (fast of Ramadan) is hard. I think it is a wonderful practice.

But the spirituality and depth and logic of Christianity, and Catholocism over whelmed me.

This is what appealed to me as a muslim.

I can today ask muslims about their faith, and they will struggle to explain it to me.

For example
Why does Allah ask the malaika to prostrate before Adam?

Why were humans created? What does it mean to have the “ruh” inside you?

Why did Allah ask Ibrahim to sacrafice Ishmael, and then say that the chosen people (favoured above all others) are the descendants of Isaac?

And if the descendants of Isaac are the favoured people, was the covenant only with them or was it made with the ishmaelites too?

If so why aren’t the Ishmaelites favoured above all people?

If God instituted sacraficial atonement with Musa, then why did He forget about it in the Qur’an for us?
*
Id al-Adha celebrates the sacrafice of Ibrahim of the ram, instead of Ishmael.
*

When you really think about it, only the Bible displays Gods magnificent plan, and majestic scheme.
Islam too has a part to play in Gods grand plan, we will all, muslims christians, jews, hindus, buddhists be brought back to God.

GOD LOVES US ALL, even the darkest sinner.

 

[Reuben_J]

Shenango:
Don’t say “we”. You individually may not pray to Mary. But I can quote you Catholic consecrations and blessings said to Mary from Catholic sites, and show you exactly where they amount to deification of her according to Islam’s definition of worship. Catholics do use these prayers, even if you yourself don’t.

Reuben:
I’m sorry for analogizing with the pig thing earlier on. This kind of thing could hurt the Muslims’ sensitivities here, and to them I am sorry too. I just tried to make a point, but I know it was in bad taste. Your saying we worship Mary upset me.

You might not realize it but to insinuate that Catholics worship Mary, even if it’s through your looking glass, is very offensive to us. Nothing is more offensive than someone pronouncing what we do which we don’t.

You might know this already (our relationship with Mary) and I can’t help but feel that you are insincere in this. Perhaps **Booklover ** can return the compliment.

Anyway, the explanation. Strictly in layman’s term, (theologian may say it differently and confuse you even more). 1st of all, Catholics believe that we are all family of God, whether alive or dead, through Jesus Christ who is a brother, (also Lord and King) to us. We share in His sonship of the Father by believing.

Mary is Jesus’ mother on earth and none can deny that son-mother relationship. We believe Mary and the other saints are in heaven with God. Being Jesus’ mother, surely Mary has special position among the saints. But Mary is still a saint **NOT ** Goddess.

Asking Mary for protection or praying to Mary must be understood as request for prayer of intercession. You can’t be very legalistic here. Hope you’re still with me. Christian prayer is not equivalent to the Muslims’ prayer (solat). The nearest similarity to solat is perhaps the Catholic holy mass, which is obligatory to all Catholics. Christian prayer, perhaps, closely similar to your supplication, which we understand too.

The prayer wordings you mentioned are devotional prayers. Devotion is to maintain and cement the relationship with the saint preferred. And they are just prayers. It’s dangerous to dissect the wording of other people’ prayers without understanding why they are said. Aren’t Muslims guilty of having this tendency to make conclusion on what we do by mere observation?

A prayer is just a prayer. Why worry about words when you talk to a friend? Communication. It always leads us closer to God. I can say to you, brother Shenango, you are most kind, most helpful, please recommend me to Shenango Sr. so that I can get that job in his firm. Or please speak for me so that Sr. can spare some men to guard my barn from the intruders (asking for protection). Sr. who has a soft spot for you might be persuaded by you. But this is not to take anything away from Sr. He is what he is. It’s his decision. And if I’m granted my request, I can come back to you and thank you and bless you. So between us, it can become one meaningful relationship where I would always keep in touch with you (devotion). Not to mention I would thanks Sr.

So sure we are of Mary’s effectiveness in intercession, we just use this as one of the ways we pray. This is actually praying together with the saints. I pray to Mary too. For this matter we pray to the other saints too, who are patron of certain largesse. St. Christopher is the patron of lost article. If I’m lost I can pray to him, implore him, so that we pray together, asking God to show me the way. It’s just praying together except that they are not living people. The whole understanding is we are family, through Jesus.

This may seem silly to people with different understanding of heaven and God… Why wasting time to go to the saints? Why not just go to God? But this is not worship at all. We believe that God delights in the worship of all His creations – dead, alive and angels. Creations who believe, worship God together, pray to God together.

I understand Islam doesn’t believe in the dead or anything with hint of worship other than God. But to us this is stupid, because God is not stupid and humans are intelligent enough to know the difference. Most sins committed are not through ignorance but deliberation and disobedience.

1 of 2

 

[Preacher]

hawk:

As a Catholic, My spiritual life took on a deeper meaning, I came to realise that Allah(swt) made us all unique.

I found islam a dead faith, dead in practice and dead in adherents.
There is a one size fits all approach to spirituality.
There is a clear cut definition of Halal, Haraam, and Mukhroo.
I should know, I grew up in a pious Muslim house.

But as Christians, we are not just saved by Christ, we re-aquire our divine nature, and we are called to live it out to the best of our abilities.

So for lent, give up that which you most crave, and if that is not enough give up something more.
Take up your cross and follow Jesus.

In islam too you give up all things haraam. Certainly keeping roza the (fast of Ramadan) is hard. I think it is a wonderful practice.

But the spirituality and depth and logic of Christianity, and Catholocism over whelmed me.

This is what appealed to me as a muslim.

I can today ask muslims about their faith, and they will struggle to explain it to me.

For example
Why does Allah ask the malaika to prostrate before Adam?

Why were humans created? What does it mean to have the “ruh” inside you?

Why did Allah ask Ibrahim to sacrafice Ishmael, and then say that the chosen people (favoured above all others) are the descendants of Isaac?

And if the descendants of Isaac are the favoured people, was the covenant only with them or was it made with the ishmaelites too?

If so why aren’t the Ishmaelites favoured above all people?

If God instituted sacraficial atonement with Musa, then why did He forget about it in the Qur’an for us?
*
Id al-Adha celebrates the sacrafice of Ibrahim of the ram, instead of Ishmael.
*

When you really think about it, only the Bible displays Gods magnificent plan, and majestic scheme.
Islam too has a part to play in Gods grand plan, we will all, muslims christians, jews, hindus, buddhists be brought back to God.

GOD LOVES US ALL, even the darkest sinner.

:nope:
Gaga-caca

 

[hawk]

Gaga-caca

[/quote]

Preacher,

Do you believe Allah tests you? And for what reason does he test you?

Why did Isa (pbuh) come?

 

[Preacher]

hawk:

Preacher,

Do you believe Allah tests you? And for what reason does he test you?

Why did Isa (pbuh) come?

Hi there

My advise to novice is that stick to the topic of this thread i.e. The eternal nature of the Qur’an…please help me understand?

Second, get a good knowledge of your own scripture, because your questions may backfire.

You think on this!

Regards
Preacher

 

[hawk]

Preacher:

Hi there

My advise to novice is that stick to the topic of this thread i.e. The eternal nature of the Qur’an…please help me understand?

Second, get a good knowledge of your own scripture, because your questions may backfire.

You think on this!

Regards
Preacher

Preacher,
We seek the truth in all matters.
This is not some game.

The question is the eternal nature of the Qur’an.

I am an apostate of Islam, allow me to show you the Truth of the Bible, but you must be open to letting go of the Qur’an, and seeking True faith.

I was like a man parched in the desert, until I tasted the sweet waters of Christianity. I find more than anything now, the need to share this sweet water with all my bretheren, including Catholics.

Believe me I struggled with Christianity, I couldnt believe it.

But I sought the truth, and the logic and truth of it is unassailable.

I found I could never go back to being muslim, even though i couldnt let go of it.

But the voice inside me tookover, I knew I had found the Truth in Christianity.

Islam always struck me as true, until I encountered Christianity, then I realised what the Truth really is.

Its like this, Islam is a crush, you think you are in love until you encounter the “right one” the “soul mate”- Christianity, is like full blown marriage.

The logic the Truth, the depth, you will never find this in Islam.

All I ask is that you open your mind.
The Truth is logical, it will eat up inside you, till you surrender your life to Christ.

 

[Preacher]

hawk:

Preacher,
We seek the truth in all matters.
This is not some game.

Correction, you are seeking the truth while I don’t. I already have the truth i.e. Islam. So don’t project your short-coming on me.

hawk:

The question is the eternal nature of the Qur’an.

I have already answered and refuted that and no one came foward to prove me wrong. Because no one can’t, it is as simple as abc!

hawk:

I am an apostate of Islam, allow me to show you the Truth of the Bible, allow me to show you the Truth of the Bible, but you must be open to letting go of the Qur’an, and seeking True faith.

I don’t care who you are. Also why would I buy your gobbledygook about the Bible that I already know inside out. I also know it is full of non-sense. End of the discussion, again, stick to the topic of the thread.

Regards
Preacher

 

[hawk]

Preacher:

I don’t care who you are. Also why would I buy your gobbledygook about the Bible that I already know inside out. I also know it is full of non-sense. End of the discussion, again, stick to the topic of the thread.

SHAKIR: Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.

Is this the speech of Allah too?

 

[Preacher]

hawk:

SHAKIR: Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.

Is this the speech of Allah too?

Hi there

You have quoted English translation without citing the proper reference. Though I know which translation is this, but that is beside the proint here.

Let me asnwer your question that Allah’s speech is not in English. What you have quoted is from “Shakir” based on his understading and knowledge.

Regards
Preacher

 

[hawk]

Preacher:

Hi there

You have quoted English translation without citing the proper reference. Though I know which translation is this, but that is beside the proint here.

Let me asnwer your question that Allah’s speech is not in English. What you have quoted is from “Shakir” based on his understading and knowledge.

Regards
Preacher

Allah’s speech is in the language of the heart, it is not in Arabic either buddy, simply because arabic is a man-made language.

Wa’salam

 

[Preacher]

hawk:

Allah’s speech is in the language of the heart, it is not in Arabic either buddy, simply because arabic is a man-made language.

Wa’salam

 

[dennisknapp]

Preacher:

Hi there

You have quoted English translation without citing the proper reference. Though I know which translation is this, but that is beside the proint here.

Let me asnwer your question that Allah’s speech is not in English. What you have quoted is from “Shakir” based on his understading and knowledge.

Regards
Preacher

Why is Islam the true faith? How do you know? How do you know the Qur’an is His word?

Peace

 

[Preacher]

dennisknapp:

Why is Islam the true faith? How do you know? How do you know the Qur’an is His word?

Peace

Hi there

It is for me to know and you to find out? I can ask the same questions about Christianity, Bible and Jesus. Why you Christians can’t stick to the topic of this thread, you have started with your absolute ignorance?

Jesus was a Muslim, do you know that?

Regards
Preacher

 

[hawk]

Preacher:

Hi there

It is for me to know and you to find out? I can ask the same questions about Christianity, Bible and Jesus. Why you Christians can’t stick to the topic of this thread, you have started with your absolute ignorance?

Jesus was a Muslim, do you know that?

Regards
Preacher

Preacher,
Christianity is extermely logical and consistent. Islam just is not.

I have shown you how Jesus could never have been a muslim in the other thread, you have to realise that Islam is not the Truth, I wish to start proselytising on muslim boards soon, giving dawah to muslims who wish to seek the Truth.

 

[dennisknapp]

Preacher:

Hi there

It is for me to know and you to find out?

This is childish. So, you are just going to give me an assertion?

Preacher:

I can ask the same questions about Christianity, Bible and Jesus.

Ask away. Christianity is true because the resurrection is historical fact. Here are some links for you to read through:
leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/tomb2.html

leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html

They both deal with the historicity of the resurrection. Here is an excerpt.

"1) The historical reliability of the burial story supports the empty tomb. If the burial account is accurate, then the site of Jesus’ grave was known to Jew and Christian alike. In that case, it is a very short inference to historicity of the empty tomb. For if Jesus had not risen and the burial site were known:

(a) the disciples could never have believed in the resurrection of Jesus. For a first century Jew the idea that a man might be raised from the dead while his body remained in the tomb was simply a contradiction in terms. In the words of E. E. Ellis, “It is very unlikely that the earliest Palestinian Christians could conceive of any distinction between resurrection and physical, ‘grave emptying’ resurrection. To them an anastasis without an empty grave would have been about as meaningful as a square circle.”

(b) Even if the disciples had believed in the resurrection of Jesus, it is doubtful they would have generated any following. So long as the body was interred in the tomb, a Christian movement founded on belief in the resurrection of the dead man would have been an impossible folly.

(c) The Jewish authorities would have exposed the whole affair. The quickest and surest answer to the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus would have been simply to point to his grave on the hillside."–Dr Willian Lane Craig

Preacher:

Why you Christians can’t stick to the topic of this thread, you have started with your absolute ignorance?

“Absolute ignorance?” I started this thread to gain understanding. I learned alot. My question is inline with the nature of the Qur’an. If Islam is not the truth faith, the Qur’an is not the word of God.

Preacher:

Jesus was a Muslim, do you know that?

Regards
Preacher

An assertion, nice. Mind backing that up with some evidence?

Peace

 

[Reuben_J]

Shenango:
Ok Reuben, I’ve had enough of these games. If you’re going to claim my Qur’an says “Father, son, mother”, then you’re going to show me exactly where it does that and interpret it for me. Then I will respond. Then we’ll see who’s wrong.

Reuben:
OK Shenango, this topics been discussed here in this forum and also can be found in many Islamic websites. Now I just want to hear it from you – **what does Quran says on Christians’ belief of God? ** Please answer that honestly from your heart.

I initially asked to dialogue with you because I thought you were a reasonably intelligent Muslim (not that the others are not) who are brave and credible enough to state Muslim’s stand on certain issues, so that we can cut the wrangling and give us more time to proceed further on what already generally accepted. If you are not, then I am wasting my time.

Shenango:
Where did you get this claim? The Bible you believe in contradicts it.

Reuben:
I still insist that you made fatal mistake here. Where in the Bible contradicts it? God speaks to Adam (Genesis 3), to Abraham (Genesis 15), to Noah (Genesis 9), to Joshua (Joshua 1), Elijah (1 King 17,18,19), to name a few. And the list goes on and on. We call God, the living God, not for nothing. One of them – He walked the earth with His people.

Have you not heard the famous line of Samuel? **“Speak O Lord, thy servant is listening” (1 Sam 3:10). ** Just whom do you think is calling him? Oh, at this rate, you are beginning to flatter me. Please! My goodness, I thought you’re the scholar. You presented to me as if you know more than what you actually have. Since you’ve given me advice, I’d like to return the favor - It’s wiser to stay on lower ground ‘coz if you trip it will be lighter .

God doesn’t have to come “face to face” with His prophets all the time, but He certainly talked to them in other ways. Dream, appears behind cloud or just ‘standing there’.

Angels on the other hand are usually given more straight forward task which I mentioned before. Anyway, for something that holds your life in a balance, would you trust a 3rd person to deliver it to you? The fact is – why did God not deliver the Quran Himself considering the message intended is a whole and complete text of new revelation? And if you consider Mohammad comes from a long line of prophets before him, well, God delivered most important message to the prophets Himself. Not to mention Christain’s belief that finally He came down Himself. Why? Because the message of salvation is very important. Does He considered Mohammad less of a prophet that He sent the robotic angel?

Angels don’t have free will? Again, I don’t care whether Quran says this or not, but if you believe that, you’ve been had!** “Shenango, look, I don’t have free will of my own. What I say is recorded verbatim in my mind from Him on high…” ** and he fills you with his lies. How nice! Eve been had, and she’s certainly not the last!

He is not called a thief or a liar for nothing too, who steals the truth and replaces it with lies. Can’t you see, Shenango?

On Mohammad being the Holy Spirit:

We can close this chapter, but remember this is a big accusation that Christian needs to defend. I explained enough and for me it’s a foregone conclusion. The true mark of a holy scripture is that it is clear and concise and will not leave us in a lurch 2000 years later wondering what it actually says. In important matter, scripture, at least the Bible, is even more specific, lest we would not understand. Jesus would use stories and parables to emphasize a discourse. Sometimes he would just repeat his word for emphasis.

In this case, in his post-resurrection appearance he reminded his disciples again, Act 1:8 “when the Spirit come, you will have power …” It’s like him telling them, remember what I told you before. I know it’s hard for you to bear (because till the last moment some of them still think “Lord, will you give the Kingdom back to Israel? Act 1:6) but I’m bigger than what you think I am. So don’t go away yet. Wait here in Jerusalem until the Helper comes. Then he ascended to heaven, witnessed by all of them who stood there. They were dumbstruck and in awe at the wonders of God.

Even though ignorant, they obeyed, and waited with Mary, his mother, at an upper room in Jerusalem. And indeed the Spirit did actually come (praise God), to the wonder of the whole world (praise God). If not, we would not have **the Bible ** and you would not be discussing with me now or even in this forum wasting your precious time.

That’s for now. If you want, later, I will speak on God’s nature and how Quranic message contradicts it.

Peace.

God bless you.

Reuben.

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[Reuben_J]

Shenango:

Bible corruption in this discussion does not refer to physical changes made to the text, such as deletions, additions or re-wording by scribes. Though, admittedly, the Bible has in the past suffered from this sort of thing, none of these are really relevant as far as what we’re talking about.

It was only after this corruption, that these oral traditions made it into the text that we today call the Bible.

We are saying that the Bible was a corrupt accounting of events from the first time it was laid down on paper.

Well on second thought, just in case you might not know (though I suspect you knew already).

There is nothing that you have that can disprove on the authenticity of the Bible. Your only choice is therefore to use the so-called oral tradition, blaming biblical authors’ memories for the written errors.

We know about the oral tradition already. It’s not like Jesus sitting down with the disciples dictating his teaching and then checking on the manuscripts for typos.

Only we call that something else. WITNESS. As I mentioned somewhere, Christianity is a religion found on the witnessing of the apostles – I HAVE SEEN AND HEARD. These people lived with Jesus, followed him and saw for themselves what he did and how he lived his life. Christian teaching is about the person of Jesus, not just the discourses. Therefore, it had to be witnessed.

Doesn’t matter if the writers were not the original apostles. The Holy Spirit took care of that. If you read fully my explanation on the Holy Spirit in my postings, you’ll get the idea.

Thus like I said, you just cannot approach the Bible like you do with any story books.

I decline to continue to debate on your response on this, because being a Christian and a Muslim, we are from different planets.

You say oral tradition responsible for the formation of the Bible, I say it is written by people inspired by the Holy Spirit (which is Martian for you). In actual fact, as a Muslim, this kind of thing should make sense to you. How was Mohammad inspired when he dictated the Quran? It was external power, not Mohammad own ability. Why can’t we apply that to the Biblical writers? Of course, no angel please!

Unless we accept to some degree each other stands, we would be in a stalemate.

But why it’s so important for later days Muslims to deny the authenticity of the Bible? Can I suggest that new discoveries were made by Islamic scholars after the time of Mohammad that could not fit him into the square peg? Him being somewhat round! (your own phrase). So how do you get out of the dilemma? Simple, the Bible must be wrong! At all cost, if need be.

Anyway, I’m glad that you did not come out with some authentic original manuscripts giving evidence of some crazy Christian monks had altered the Bible! Why couldn’t you? Because there is none in the first place! Just like the final edition of the Quran (though there was no final edition of the Bible), any intentional alteration would be immediately picked up by people who had and knew the scripture at that time.

Actually today you’re doing the Christians here in this forum a big favor – for them to hear it from a Muslim who admits that there is no dispute to the originality of the written Bible! That is all we need to hear. The others we know already.

The Bible does not suffer from any editing throughout the centuries. You are sadly mistaken. Translation yes, but this is what we call updating. Word changes its meaning with the passage of time.

Examples : bread=bread=money
gay=joyful=homosexual

Thus translators should be mindful of this otherwise the later generation would misunderstand certain verses. This correction is not substantial but yet need to be done.

The original texts in their original languages however do not change, and they can always be used by translators for references.

I don’t know your Quran’s Arabic. If Arabic words 1400 years ago retain their exact usage today, so be it. But it’s not like that with most living languages.

Peace.

Reuben.

 

[Anderson33]

Reuben J:

Well on second thought, just in case you might not know (though I suspect you knew already).

.

You say oral tradition responsible for the formation of the Bible, I say it is written by people inspired by the Holy Spirit (which is Martian for you). In actual fact, as a Muslim, this kind of thing should make sense to you. How was Mohammad inspired when he dictated the Quran? It was external power, not Mohammad own ability. Why can’t we apply that to the Biblical writers? Of course, no angel please!

Unless we accept to some degree each other stands, we would be in a stalemate.

But why it’s so important for later days Muslims to deny the authenticity of the Bible? Can I suggest that new discoveries were made by Islamic scholars after the time of Mohammad that could not fit him into the square peg? Him being somewhat round! (your own phrase). So how do you get out of the dilemma? Simple, the Bible must be wrong! At all cost, if need be.

Anyway, I’m glad that you did not come out with some authentic original manuscripts giving evidence of some crazy Christian monks had altered the Bible! Why couldn’t you? Because there is none in the first place! Just like the final edition of the Quran (though there was no final edition of the Bible), any intentional alteration would be immediately picked up by people who had and knew the scripture at that time.

Actually today you’re doing the Christians here in this forum a big favor – for them to hear it from a Muslim who admits that there is no dispute to the originality of the written Bible! That is all we need to hear. The others we know already.

The Bible does not suffer from any editing throughout the centuries. You are sadly mistaken. Translation yes, but this is what we call updating. Word changes its meaning with the passage of time.

Examples : bread=bread=money
gay=joyful=homosexual

Thus translators should be mindful of this otherwise the later generation would misunderstand certain verses. This correction is not substantial but yet need to be done.

The original texts in their original languages however do not change, and they can always be used by translators for references.

I don’t know your Quran’s Arabic. If Arabic words 1400 years ago retain their exact usage today, so be it. But it’s not like that with most living languages.

Peace.

Reuben.

Hi Reuben;

Just adding my bit to the discussion you are having with muslims regarding the alleged “corruption” of the bible. The following logical argumentation will show again how absurd their accusations against the Bible are:

Were the torah (Jewish sacred scriptures) and the gospel (Christian sacred scriptures) ever considered as being from the one true God by muhhamad/quoran/islam?

Yes, and the Koran says so, though I do not remember the exact verses in the Koran.

Did God promise to keep His scriptures intact, corruption-free?

Yes, and this is again clearly written in the Koran.

Thus, if the muslims claim that the bible and torah have been corrupted, then allah/god must be a very weak being, as he somehow could not keep his very own scriptures free from errors and corruption !!

I’d love to hear the comments from muslims here !!

On the other hand, if muslims say that when allah/god promised to keep his scriptures free from error/corruption he was making reference to the koran , and the Koran only, then this raises more difficult theological questions that the muslims have to clearly answer:

What kind of god is this one who deceives men by allowing them to corrupt his scriptures?

What kind of god would intentionally allow men to corrupt his own scriptures so a large part of his creation is totally mislead?

Finally, if god/allah has allowed his very own scriptures to be corrupted by men, then on what basis can anyone be assured that this god/allah did/will not allow the Koran to be corrupted by men???

This should put to rest the illogical arguments that the muslims everywhere are putting against the one true word of God, which is of course the Christian bible.