The Ethics of Food Production

[mapleoak]

The problem I have with this approach is that farm animals such as cows, sheep and chickens actually have a far greater claim to sentience than a second-trimester foetus, in that they have a fully-developed nervous system, can feel pain, and have an innate interest in their continued existence - call it a survival instinct, if you will.

Animals do not have a claim to anything, irregardless if they have a nervous system or even hair with polka dots. Certainly not more claim to life than a human being in its 2nd trimester of life before birth.

The only thing that makes these issues contentious is the determination of many people to place humans in a category completely separate to other animals.

No, it is the determinination of many people to place animals in a category above that which they are, brute beasts created to serve man.

This is rationally indefensible on many bases, which I have already described on other threads. I certainly don’t remember what it was like to be a foetus in the womb.

Likewise you would not remember what it was like last night while asleep, nor what you did on the 2nd of February three years ago.

At that time, I had no personal interest in my future survival - it was my parents’ interest that determined whether or not I lived.

And thankfully, they didn’t deem you to be a disposable animal which can be ruthlessly killed in the womb.

It is not necessary to champion the cause of unborn human foetuses in order to care about the suffering of other animals.

Yes, we have to champion the cause of the unborn, as well as the plight of all the hungry people in the world whose lives come before that of animals, which are here for the purpose of providing food.

 

[mapleoak]

There are a number of issues connected to intensive animal farming. The most obvious is the suffering it causes to the animals involved. They are confined in enclosures that barely allow them room to move, let alone perform any of their natural functions; they are bred specifically to increase meat production - on some farms, chickens are bred so that they reach slaughter weight in a matter of a few weeks, and their legs become deformed because they don’t grow fast enough to bear the weight of their bodies; on the whole, intensive farming results in animals that are so stressed that killing them for food almost seems like an act of mercy.

How much experience do you have in the farming industry? Seems most of your knowledge of animal husbandry practices comes from biased web sources. Did you know a dairy cow or goat is not a profitable animal if abused and neglected? As a long time dairy farmer I can assure of the fact that the slightest discomfort or stress experienced by the animal results in a marked drop in milk production. Same with meat animals. It would also be wise to check with USDA standards for what drugs and hormones are actually allowed for use in food animals. You would be surprised.

Furthermore, the meat industry is incredibly wasteful - far more meat spoils and is thrown away than is consumed.

Source?

Also, using land for raising livestock on a large scale is not the most economical means of food production - far more food could be produced if the same area of land was used for growing staples such as wheat and corn.

Not true. Land that wasn’t used for livestock, would likely not be used for growing wheat and corn. Even if it was it, by far most of it would likely be used to grow corn or hay or other crops which is used to feed none other than meat animals raised for the purposes of feeding people. Further, animals turn in to nutritious food that which is indigestable to human beings. You would not survive very long eathing alfalfa and clover or bramble bushes. Much more wasteful is the use of millions of acres of land for picturesque national parks when such land could be used for agriculture. But that is a nonsense claim as well, since land doesn’t farm itself.

 

[bbarrick8383]

How much experience do you have in the farming industry? Seems most of your knowledge of animal husbandry practices comes from biased web sources. Did you know a dairy cow or goat is not a profitable animal if abused and neglected? As a long time dairy farmer I can assure of the fact that the slightest discomfort or stress experienced by the animal results in a marked drop in milk production. Same with meat animals. It would also be wise to check with USDA standards for what drugs and hormones are actually allowed for use in food animals. You would be surprised.

The beef business altogethor is not very profitable. The liberals are talking about imposing a 200 dollar tax per cow because of their flatulence problems. It has got the small cattle ranches here talking about getting out. It’s just not worth the hassle.

Not true. Land that wasn’t used for livestock, would likely not be used for growing wheat and corn. Further, animals turn in to nutritious food that which is indigestable to human beings. You would not survive very long eathing alfalfa and clover or bramble bushes. Much more wasteful is the use of millions of acres of land for picturesque national parks when such land could be used for agriculture. But that is a nonsense claim as well, since land doesn’t farm itself.

Lots of land here not being used for much of anything these days as well. Peanuts arent profitable enough, which was one of the biggest products of my area. We still produce a small amount of pecans, which that’s not going to make anyone rich. A lot of horse ranchers have moved in and bought all the farming land to raise thoroughbreds. Kinda sad to see the farming go though.

 

[mapleoak]

The beef business altogethor is not very profitable. The liberals are talking about imposing a 200 dollar tax per cow because of their flatulence problems. It has got the small cattle ranches here talking about getting out. It’s just not worth the hassle.

Lots of land here not being used for much of anything these days as well. Peanuts arent profitable enough, which was one of the biggest products of my area. We still produce a small amount of pecans, which that’s not going to make anyone rich. A lot of horse ranchers have moved in and bought all the farming land to raise thoroughbreds. Kinda sad to see the farming go though.

And we are aware of the fact that farmers do not go out and grow crops for fun which they will have no market for.

 

[mapleoak]

The beef business altogethor is not very profitable. The liberals are talking about imposing a 200 dollar tax per cow because of their flatulence problems. It has got the small cattle ranches here talking about getting out. It’s just not worth the hassle.

And if you think free range meat is expensive now (why? Because it is inefficient and impractical for feeding large numbers of people) just imagine if everyone demanded free range meat? Ultimately no one would get what they demand since the availability would be so slim hence the cost would sky rocket, forcing people back to guess what? Safe, wholesome beef and beef products produced by efficient, USDA certified farms.
Haven’t heard of the 200 dollar tax per cow problem though. That must be aweful.

 

[mpi]

It occurs to me that all the objections I have to human “use” of animals in the ways we currently employ may be summed up as follows: We allow the non-basic, luxury needs of humans (generally referred to as ‘desires’) to trump the basic needs of nonhuman animals. In other words - and in specific relation to factory farming - we think that our desire to eat meat on a more-or-less daily basis is more important than the basic needs of those animals that provide said meat to follow the natural course of their lives and carry out their normal behaviours.

To me, that is simply unacceptable. It is just as unacceptable as the Western world ignoring the needs of people in developing countries to grow food crops because we desire cheap and readily available coffee and tobacco.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

Maybe I should get my wife a new leather coat…

Methinks you have animals on a higher pedastal than the CCC deems warranted.

 

[Sair]

You lack credibility when you present “facts” that are not facts at all. Chickens do not receive growth hormones whether raised conventionally or organically. You give propaganda, but not facts.

If I recall correctly, hormone supplementation has only relatively recently been banned, and that as a result of concerns for human health - nothing to do with chicken welfare. The fact remains that intensively-farmed poultry are specifically bred to grow at an unnaturally rapid rate.

More fallacious arguing. You have assumed a fact not in evidence.

Sadly, the fact that many who post to these forums have absolutely no concern for animal welfare is very much in evidence.

It’s quite true that I have never lived on a farm. I have no doubt that it would be less than pleasant to assist with the birth of a calf or lamb, but I’d have no qualms about getting my hands dirty to help an animal in distress. God knows I’ve cleaned up enough blood, vomit and excrement in my time.

Several people have suggested, on this and another thread, that it’s one thing to care about animal welfare, but quite another thing to cope with the conditions on intensive farms, in a manner that is cost-effective. Animal welfare be damned when it comes down to dollars and cents, eh? This is exactly what the problem is - meat production has become a huge commercial enterprise, and the ones that suffer most because of this are the animals. Sentient creatures reduced to the status of objects for human exploitation. Meat was never meant to be a staple of the human diet, but a supplement. It is because Westerners have come to expect cheap, readily available meat that the inhumane conditions of intensive farming persist.

I applaud those people who raise their own animals in free-range and organic conditions. I do my best to support small growers by spending the extra money for free-range and organic produce. This is how I respond to the problem. It’s not much, and I’m just one person, but if every one person did something, it would make a real difference to animal welfare.

 

[pnewton]

From the catechism:

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Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.
2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

I have no problem with, nor do I view it as needless, the suffering required to maximize food production.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

I’d really like to see hundreds of thousands of livestock grazing on a small pasture.

Me, too!
This really illustrates the kind of misstatements made by folks removed from livestock production. You get gross exaggerations & a lack of practical understanding of land management.Since the majority of today’s population is also removed from farming by at least a generation or two, they’ll accept these distortions as fact.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

The difference between the unborn child and a sheep is the unborn child was created in the image of God and given an eternal soul. The sheep was not.

It’s a big difference.

Big.

Humans didn’t put themselves in a catagory seperate to animals… God did.

Amen:thumbsup:

 

[1ke]

If I recall correctly, hormone supplementation has only relatively recently been banned, and that as a result of concerns for human health - nothing to do with chicken welfare. The fact remains that intensively-farmed poultry are specifically bred to grow at an unnaturally rapid rate.

If by recent you mean 1959, then I guess it was recent.

 

[Sair]

Me, too!
This really illustrates the kind of misstatements made by folks removed from livestock production. You get gross exaggerations & a lack of practical understanding of land management.Since the majority of today’s population is also removed from farming by at least a generation or two, they’ll accept these distortions as fact.

Undoubtedly there are some gross exaggerations made, but sometimes shock tactics are necessary to get people thinking and hopefully learning about the facts of the matter. Just ask the anti-abortion activists. Even though the vast majority of abortions are performed before the end of the first trimester, when the foetus is incapable of suffering, anti-choicers focus almost exclusively on late-term and partial birth abortions, and distort the picture to give the impression that these are the norm rather than the exception.

One does not need to know all about the practicalities and the financial contstraints of intensive farming operations to know that there are far more humane options for raising animals. The fact that not all farmers use inhumane methods does nothing to change the ugly reality of the conditions endured by animals kept under intensive conditions. The fact that there are a growing number of farmers who raise animals in free-range and organic conditions means that it’s increasingly possible to make ethical choices, even without being a strict vegetarian or vegan.

Part of the reason intensive farming practices continue is precisely the kind of ignorance you mention above. The majority of people in Western nations are far removed from the cycles and rhythms of the natural world. Meat comes in plastic wrap, eggs come in cartons, milk comes in plastic bottles, and many people give no thought to where it all came from before that. Ignorance is not an excuse for perpetuating cruelty, and people who care will take the trouble to look for information and educate themselves. If I am made aware of inaccuracies in my information, I’ll simply spend more time researching. I resent the implication that just because I’m a city girl, I have no right to care about where my food comes from, or speak out against mistreatment of animals.

 

[pnewton]

Undoubtedly there are some gross exaggerations made, but sometimes shock tactics are necessary to get people thinking and hopefully learning about the facts of the matter.

Lying is never justified. When one has to resort to tricks and ruses to make a point, there is no point worth making.

 

[Sair]

Lying is never justified. When one has to resort to tricks and ruses to make a point, there is no point worth making.

Where are the lies, exactly? Are you saying that intensive farming doesn’t happen, or that the methods involved are not cruel?

 

[mapleoak]

Where are the lies, exactly? Are you saying that intensive farming doesn’t happen, or that the methods involved are not cruel?

Yes it does happen, as does just about every other evil you can think of happens. This thread is basically saying farmers and farming are bad because someone mistreats their animals.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Lying is never justified. When one has to resort to tricks and ruses to make a point, there is no point worth making.

Agreed. And this is pretty much what PETA does, as well.

 

[pnewton]

Where are the lies, exactly? Are you saying that intensive farming doesn’t happen, or that the methods involved are not cruel?

I was responding to your statement, which I found to be problematic.

Originally Posted by Sair forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Undoubtedly there are some gross exaggerations made, but sometimes shock tactics are necessary to get people thinking and hopefully learning about the facts of the matter.

When we find sites that use these tactics, whatever the subject or side one is on, they should not be used. If something is worth saying, it is worth being totally honest about.

 

[Marfran]

The beef business altogethor is not very profitable. The liberals are talking about imposing a 200 dollar tax per cow because of their flatulence problems. It has got the small cattle ranches here talking about getting out. It’s just not worth the hassle.

Lots of land here not being used for much of anything these days as well. Peanuts arent profitable enough, which was one of the biggest products of my area. We still produce a small amount of pecans, which that’s not going to make anyone rich. A lot of horse ranchers have moved in and bought all the farming land to raise thoroughbreds. Kinda sad to see the farming go though.

bbarrick: I like to read what you have to say because you have some real life experience to share and present your perspectives calmly! I like the hotheads too, though!! Jalapeno hot!!! Did I spell that vegetable right?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Sadly, the fact that many who post to these forums have absolutely no concern for animal welfare is very much in evidence.

No most of them care when asked, they just do not lose sleep over it. Their lives are spent making their environment better. Me for instance, I have my cows, my oil wells and another oil field business. My job is to maximize the oil production for other companies. I do the best I can and I try to keep the environment in mind while doing so. But, I am not an extremist. I know there is no such thing as global warming and Al Gore is full of it. Fargo is expected to get another foot of snow I think.

It’s quite true that I have never lived on a farm. I have no doubt that it would be less than pleasant to assist with the birth of a calf or lamb, but I’d have no qualms about getting my hands dirty to help an animal in distress. God knows I’ve cleaned up enough blood, vomit and excrement in my time.

I’m sure you wouldnt, it can be quite an experience to drive up to a new momma and see her new baby laying on the ground. And it can be quite and experience to have to pull a dead baby from her. I dont enjoy it, but I do it to feed my family.

Several people have suggested, on this and another thread, that it’s one thing to care about animal welfare, but quite another thing to cope with the conditions on intensive farms, in a manner that is cost-effective. Animal welfare be damned when it comes down to dollars and cents, eh? This is exactly what the problem is - meat production has become a huge commercial enterprise, and the ones that suffer most because of this are the animals. Sentient creatures reduced to the status of objects for human exploitation. Meat was never meant to be a staple of the human diet, but a supplement. It is because Westerners have come to expect cheap, readily available meat that the inhumane conditions of intensive farming persist.

It’s not animal welfare be damned when it comes to dollars and cents. It’s feeding people that know they must eat meat to be healthy. How much is a damn chicken worth in dollars and cents? The more regulations you force upon a business the more expensive the product becomes. Its animal welfare be damned to make sure that those who can not afford nor have the means to buy organic meat. I’ve been in organic stores, I know they are considerably more expensive. Unless you found a cheap way to raise a large amount of chickens to feed a large amount of people so that everyone could afford to eat it then animal welfare isnt going to get much better. It sounds like you have never had to fight for, hunt for, clean and take care of your own food. If the world were to suddenly have all of its technology taken away and people were forced to grow and hunt for their own food, the country boy would survive and we would have to feed a lot of others. And people would care less that we shot a deer and it ran for half a mile with a bullet or arrow in it before it laid over dead. Ever cleaned a deer? Trust me its not pretty.

I applaud those people who raise their own animals in free-range and organic conditions. I do my best to support small growers by spending the extra money for free-range and organic produce. This is how I respond to the problem. It’s not much, and I’m just one person, but if every one person did something, it would make a real difference to animal welfare.

Again, I’m glad you can afford to spend the extra money to buy that stuff. But many, including myself, have been in a position where they have to buy what they can afford. I thank God that I am no longer in that position and I am doing very well for myself, but I have not forgotten where I or my ancestors have been. And every once in awhile, nothing beats some good ol KFC. If every one person including yourself, thought about human welfare for once instead of animal welfare, we wouldnt have something so inhumane as abortion. I’d wring 30 million chickens right now to get back the 30+ million babies that have been killed.

The dollars and cents of it do not add up to as much as you think they do. You fall in line with the same people who hate companies like exxon for making billions but forget the billions they pay in taxes and products they bring to the table to make life better. Did you turn out your lights last night for the earth day ordeal? Guess what, New York wasted as much power turning everything back on as they saved in that one hour.

 

[yellowbird]

. Even though the vast majority of abortions are performed before the end of the first trimester, when the foetus is incapable of suffering, anti-choicers focus almost exclusively on late-term and partial birth abortions, and distort the picture to give the impression that these are the norm rather than the exception.

.

It drives me insane the way you keep insinuating that if the baby doesn’t feel the pain of being ripped to shreds, that somehow makes it ok?

If there is LIFE in the womb, even if it is only weeks old - ending that life is murder. Just because it’s a pain-murder doesn’t make it any less wrong. In the end, it’s still a dead baby.

Know your audience. These sorts of arguments in an attempt to further your cause will get you no where on a Catholic forum.