The Ethics of Food Production

[vz71]

I think the “Quote” got mixed up here as far as who posted it but it’s still funny.

I don’t much care who the quote is from.

Someone owes me a new keyboard for all the milk I spit all over it.


Just imagine, I am still reeling from the concept of psychoanalyzing a chicken, when someone comes up with a brilliant idea to use PETA volunteers as dairy cows.

I’d love to see what the "free range’ farm looks like.

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5057951:

What does that have to do with breeding cattle to produce more milk?

You said that you have been doing this for hundreds of years. The current mass production of cow’s milk, in current amounts of both milk and cattle, was very different hundreds of years ago. Specifically how far back in history did you mean?

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5057951:

Maybe female Peta supporters would be interested in a job providing breast milk to everyone.

You guys don’t make sense! Mammals produce milk to feed the young of their species. The adults of any species do not drink milk. Humans highjack milk from another species that is producing the milk to feed *their *young.

If humans are supposed to drink milk until they are 90 years old, or until the day that they die, then why don’t we continue to produce it (breast milk) and feed ourselves?

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Cracker Mom;5058002:

You said that you have been doing this for hundreds of years. The current mass production of cow’s milk, in current amounts of both milk and cattle, was very different hundreds of years ago. Specifically how far back in history did you mean?

I’m not old enough to have selectively bred cows to produce higher milk volume for hundreds of years.
If you work with animals you would probably know the history of dairy cattle breeds & how milk production per cow has increased.
Modern dairy cows are a far cry from what farmers had a couple hundred years ago & have little resemblance to the ancient wild aurochs.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

bbarrick8383;5058006:

You guys don’t make sense! Mammals produce milk to feed the young

of their species. The adults of any species do not drink milk. Humans highjack milk from another species that is producing the milk to feed *their *young.

If humans are supposed to drink milk until they are 90 years old, or until the day that they die, then why don’t we continue to produce it (breast milk) and feed ourselves?

Northern Europeans developed the ability to digest milk thousands of years ago.As far as I can see it’s made folks bigger & stronger.
Check out the Masai in Africa.Pretty impressive folk, too.

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5058301:

I’m not old enough to have selectively bred cows to produce higher milk volume for hundreds of years.
If you work with animals you would probably know the history of dairy cattle breeds & how milk production per cow has increased.
Modern dairy cows are a far cry from what farmers had a couple hundred years ago & have little resemblance to the ancient wild aurochs.

Cracker Mom you crack me up!!! I thought you said that you have been doing this for hundreds of years!!! I want to know your secret of longevity!!!

Carry on.

Mary
P.S. A little levity can help break the intensity.
Forgive me if I misquoted you or misunderstood. It is my understanding that hundreds of years ago dairy farming did not resemble current dairy farming. Cows were milked by hand hundreds of years ago, and the utilization of pastuerization made big changes in the industry.

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5058353:

Northern Europeans developed the ability to digest milk thousands of years ago.As far as I can see it’s made folks bigger & stronger.
Check out the Masai in Africa.Pretty impressive folk, too.

You didn’t answer the question. Why should we highjack it from another species? Why don’t we just produce our own? We are capable of producing it! We produce it for *our *young!! If we are intended to drink milk as adults, if it is good for us, and if we produce it for our young, then why don’t we continue to produce our own, and feed our own? Wouldn’t it be healthier to drink milk that was designed for our species, not for some other species, for an inferior species?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Cracker Mom;5058379:

You didn’t answer the question. Why should we highjack it from another species? Why don’t we just produce our own? We are capable of producing it! We produce it for *our *

young!! If we are intended to drink milk as adults, if it is good for us, and if we produce it for our young, then why don’t we continue to produce our own, and feed our own? Wouldn’t it be healthier to drink milk that was designed for our species, not for some other species, for an inferior species?

A woman has to give birth in order to produce milk. In order for the milk to continue coming in, that child or a child for all I know has to feed from her breast. A woman who uses a breast pump will eventually stop producing milk. The body can tell a difference.

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5058625:

A woman has to give birth in order to produce milk. In order for the milk to continue coming in, that child or a child for all I know has to feed from her breast. A woman who uses a breast pump will eventually stop producing milk. The body can tell a difference.

And that does not answer the question. Why would we hijack (pirate) milk from another species to feed ourselves–milk that is allegedly good for us–when we are capable of producing it for oureslves. Why don’t we continue to feed the adults of the population with our own milk, if this is a natural food for the adults of our species? Why don’t other species also feed their adults with it? Why don’t we feed cow’s milk to the infants of our species, instead of engineering formulas to mimic the make-up of human milk??? If we are supposed to drink milk, and eat milk products, why didn’t God design us to continue making it? Is it a flaw in the manufacture of our human bodies?

 

[Marfran]

bbarrick8383
P.S. I love you even if you have a dairy farm. I love you even if you drink chocolate milk. I love you even if you have leather boots. But the cheesehat–well, that’s got to go!

How come you didn’t answer my question: What do falcons and football players have in common?

Oh–not that question–the other one.

 

[bbarrick8383]

bbarrick8383;5058924:

And that does not answer the question. Why would we hijack (pirate) milk from another species to feed ourselves–milk that is allegedly good for us–when we are capable of producing it for oureslves. Why don’t we continue to feed the adults of the population with our own milk, if this is a natural food for the adults of our species?

Why don’t other species also feed their adults with it? Why don’t we feed cow’s milk to the infants of our species, instead of engineering formulas to mimic the make-up of human milk??? If we are supposed to drink milk, and eat milk products, why didn’t God design us to continue making it? Is it a flaw in the manufacture of our human bodies?

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every bird of the heavens; With all wherewith the ground teemeth, and all the fishes of the sea, into your hand are they delivered.

Because the Bible says so? If it had been that womens breast milk was used to make cheese centuries ago, I’m sure we’d use womens breast milk with our Cap’n Crunch today.

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5058353:

Northern Europeans developed the ability to digest milk thousands of years ago.As far as I can see it’s made folks bigger & stronger.
Check out the Masai in Africa.Pretty impressive folk, too.

???
Humans have been producing their own milk even longer than the Northern Europeans were able to digest it!!! Isn’t that cool!!! I love facts! I love history! I love biology! And I like you too, Cracker Mom! I’m not ready to say love yet, but I’m getting close!
P.S. I’m going to check out those Masai.

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5059119:

Because the Bible says so? If it had been that womens breast milk was used to make cheese centuries ago, I’m sure we’d use womens breast milk with our Cap’n Crunch today.

And the women’s milk dried up because? And thank God we found a substitute to pour on Captain Crunch. Your’e not really eating that stuff are you (Captain Crunch)? You gave me a sugar headache just thinking about it!

Where is that Sair guy when you need him?! I don’t want to spar with you bbarrick. Sair, you need to steer the ship back. Yes, I did say steer.

 

[Marfran]

SAIR, I am really sorry. I will go home now.

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5058353:

Northern Europeans developed the ability to digest milk thousands of years ago.As far as I can see it’s made folks bigger & stronger.
Check out the Masai in Africa.Pretty impressive folk, too.

OK–I’m sorry–I came back. Never one to back down from a challenge I did a little research on the Maasai in Africa. I’m sure that Cracker Mom just missed the second a. Very interesting choice–seems this tribe has some inhumane practices for the humans.

Wikipedia is not the most reliable source but here’s what I found:

*One rite of passage from boyhood to the status of junior warrior is a painful circumcision ceremony, which is performed without anaesthetic. This ritual is typically performed by the elders, who use a sharpened knife and makeshift cattle hide bandages for the procedure. The Maa word for circumcision is emorata.[19] The boy must endure the operation in silence. Expressions of pain bring dishonor, albeit temporarily. Any exclamations can cause a mistake in the delicate and tedious process, which can result in life-long scarring, dysfunction, and pain. The healing process will take 3-4 months, during which urination is painful and nearly impossible at times, and boys must remain in black cloths for a period of 4-8 months.[20]
A junior Moran with head-dress and markings.During this period, the newly circumcised young men will live in a “manyatta”, a “village” built by their mothers. *

 

[bbarrick8383]

bbarrick8383
P.S. I love you even if you have a dairy farm. I love you even if you drink chocolate milk. I love you even if you have leather boots. But the cheesehat–well, that’s got to go!

How come you didn’t answer my question: What do falcons and football players have in common?

Oh–not that question–the other one.

I love you too Marfran, but my cows are for beef only. I love chocolate milk but I rarely drink it, regular milk every morning, not with capn crunch though…it’s some healthy stuff that doesnt taste quite as good. And I have to wear steel toe leather boots every day, but arent cheesehats in?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have never been a chicken farmer, though we had chickens when I was a kid. I have been in both broiler houses and egg-producing houses; factory-farm style ones. There are a lot of chickens in them, for sure. But the ones I have been in are remarkably clean and compared pretty well to our old chicken coop. Food and water are well distributed and there all the time. Temperatures are controlled. When our chickens free-roamed, they spent virtually all their time eating. So, the ones in those houses don’t have to roam all over everywhere to eat. I don’t know how a chicken thinks, or if it thinks at all. But if it’s main concern is eating, and it seems to be, then I would say the ones in the big houses are not in all that bad a situation.

I do know something about ranching; have done it all my life and do it now. I’m not too surprised at what the Oklahoma fellow (bbarrick, wasn’t it?) said about a lot of Ok land either laying idle or being bought up by horse ranchers. I have heard that from others. But while Ok is near to hand here, it’s different except in the extreme eastern part; dryer and hotter in the summer. We’re in the “green fescue belt” and most of Ok isn’t, so Ok is largely dependent on Bermuda or other warm season grass, which also grows here.

To get to the point, some land can be intensively grazed and some cannot. Here, it’s actually more efficient and easier on the grass and cattle if it is grazed intensively with rapid rotation. Very large numbers of cattle can be grazed on very small pastures. But then they’re quickly rotated to another “paddock”, then another, then another, and so on. If one is in a part of the country where good cool season grass like fescue is pastured in season, then the cattle are switched to warm season grass like bermuda or bluestem, they eat well all year long, and always by grazing except when there’s ice on the ground or deep snow. I will say that’s a narrow band of land where you can do that.

But to the extent people even do that, it’s still “artificial”. Feeding hay at all is “artificial”. Bovines in the wild, like buffalo, used to roam constantly, from Texas to Canada and back, doing the very same thing we do with pasture rotation. But, since we don’t let them roam from Texas to Canada, it’s still “artificial”, even though it sure is close to what cattle would do naturally. But what’s “natural” for a cow? When a rancher rotates, the cattle learn it just as buffalo learned to put their backs to the cold Alberta winds and head for Texas. When it comes time to rotate, they’re waiting at the gate.

Those who admire “organic beef” are actually getting pretty close to their ideal when they buy in the supermarket anymore. Because of the price of grain, feed lots have started “upstreaming” most of the weight gain of feeder cattle, so that it’s more profitable for a rancher to raise a steer to nearly slaughter weight on grass alone. The feed lots “finish” them with grain for a much shorter time than they used to. The “organic beef” people charge a lot because most of them try to certify that the beef really is “organic”. And there is cachet to it. But the truth is that most of it is organically raised anyway, and they could do just about as well to buy nearly-finished animals for nearly any rancher and have the same result. At least around here, that would be the case.

And what do cattle do all day on the ranches? They eat and rest. They do that in sequence all day and all night. Every waking hour is spent eating. I have never seen a cow admire the scenery or read a book or sing a song. So what do they do in the feed lots? They eat and they rest. I’ll grant that feed lots are crowded and smell of manure and fermenting grain. But cattle are often crowded even when they could spread out in a pasture, so I’m not sure it offends them. The smell is another thing. I don’t know how they react to that. You can’t tell. Any rancher will tell you that he, himself, is not offended by the smell of cow manure. Fermenting grain, though, I don’t like to smell. But one thing is for sure. All creatures in the wild starve to death or die of disease or are torn apart by predators in the end. None of those things happen on a well-run ranch except the disease part,and that’s rare because ranchers vaccinate their cattle.

So I’m not too sure that the lives food animals have is all that terrible when compared to what their lives would be otherwise. Almost without exception, they eat well, get good drinking water, are treated well and die very quickly.

Almost nothing goes to waste in a meat processing plant. I know people who utilize the “offal”; usually for pet food, and the utilization is virtually total.

All Indo-Europeans are the descendants of a long, long line of herders. We can digest milk sugar; I suppose because those of us who couldn’t died young. We have eaten diets heavy in meat for thousands of years, because that’s all we had. We followed herds across the steppes and, since we couldn’t eat grass, we drank milk and ate meat. Those places where people subsisted entirely on grain were occupied, so we stayed out on the steppes where you can’t grow grain, for thousand more years. So, maybe eating a lot of meat and drinking cow’s milk is “unnatural” for some. But I think it’s a stretch to say it is for all.

Finally, I wonder how many people in, say, 1870 died of salmonella or brucellosis or ergotism or some other disease or toxicity they ingested that came from old fashioned farms. It had to be a lot of them. I’m not all that eager to return to “non-factory” farming, myself.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I do know something about ranching; have done it all my life and do it now. I’m not too surprised at what the Oklahoma fellow (bbarrick, wasn’t it?) said about a lot of Ok land either laying idle or being bought up by horse ranchers. I have heard that from others. But while Ok is near to hand here, it’s different except in the extreme eastern part; dryer and hotter in the summer. We’re in the “green fescue belt” and most of Ok isn’t, so Ok is largely dependent on Bermuda or other warm season grass, which also grows here.

Yea, my family has been in farming, cattle and oil since before I was born. One of my great uncles used to pull oil wells with a team of mules. They did a lot of peanuts before I was born so I missed out on that. Something about the government setting the price on peanuts or something and it hasnt changed since the 60’s or 70’s. Anyway, I know there isnt much money in it anymore. We have a small cattle operation, do some small farming about an acre or so of veggies and stuff, and then a couple acres of watermelon. Sounds like you’ve got a bit more experience in farming than I do though, I’m in the oil fields most the time.

When it comes time to rotate, they’re waiting at the gate.

Before the grass starts growing back, my cows are waiting at the gate for a sack of cubes every morning. It’s like clockwork, they spend most their time at the bottom near the ponds and are always waiting in the same spot every morning.

And what do cattle do all day on the ranches? They eat and rest. They do that in sequence all day and all night. Every waking hour is spent eating. I have never seen a cow admire the scenery or read a book or sing a song. So what do they do in the feed lots? They eat and they rest. I’ll grant that feed lots are crowded and smell of manure and fermenting grain. But cattle are often crowded even when they could spread out in a pasture, so I’m not sure it offends them. The smell is another thing. I don’t know how they react to that. You can’t tell. Any rancher will tell you that he, himself, is not offended by the smell of cow manure. Fermenting grain, though, I don’t like to smell. But one thing is for sure. All creatures in the wild starve to death or die of disease or are torn apart by predators in the end. None of those things happen on a well-run ranch except the disease part,and that’s rare because ranchers vaccinate their cattle.

Ever been through Dalhart and Dumas over by Amarillo? Wow, it can stink pretty bad over there.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Cracker Mom;5058379:

OK–I’m sorry–I came back. Never one to back down from a challenge I did a little research on the Maasai in Africa. I’m sure that Cracker Mom just missed the second a

. Very interesting choice–seems this tribe has some inhumane practices for the humans.

Wikipedia is not the most reliable source but here’s what I found:

*One rite of passage from boyhood to the status of junior warrior is a painful circumcision ceremony, which is performed without anaesthetic. This ritual is typically performed by the elders, who use a sharpened knife and makeshift cattle hide bandages for the procedure. The Maa word for circumcision is emorata.[19] The boy must endure the operation in silence. Expressions of pain bring dishonor, albeit temporarily. Any exclamations can cause a mistake in the delicate and tedious process, which can result in life-long scarring, dysfunction, and pain. The healing process will take 3-4 months, during which urination is painful and nearly impossible at times, and boys must remain in black cloths for a period of 4-8 months.[20]
A junior Moran with head-dress and markings.During this period, the newly circumcised young men will live in a “manyatta”, a “village” built by their mothers. *

I’m not aware that these posts are about challenging one another.
Masai has two optional spellings from what I can see.One “a” or two.Your pick.
It’s off-topic, but adult men men converting to Judaism undergo circumcision as well.Different ceremony & settings for the procedure, but same idea.There’s nothing inhumane re. circumcision.I think it’s a good idea & something Christ underwent Himself.But that’s a whole 'nother kettle of beans.
The subject was the nutritional value of milk.Not whether it made the consumer more sensitive or humane.The Vikings were a pretty tough bunch, too.
The only sites I can see that promote the idea that milk consumption results in calcium being “leached” from human bones are vegan/health food sites.
Stay away from Wikipedia.Not very reliable.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yea, my family has been in farming, cattle and oil since before I was born. One of my great uncles used to pull oil wells with a team of mules. They did a lot of peanuts before I was born so I missed out on that. Something about the government setting the price on peanuts or something and it hasnt changed since the 60’s or 70’s. Anyway, I know there isnt much money in it anymore. We have a small cattle operation, do some small farming about an acre or so of veggies and stuff, and then a couple acres of watermelon. Sounds like you’ve got a bit more experience in farming than I do though, I’m in the oil fields most the time.

Before the grass starts growing back, my cows are waiting at the gate for a sack of cubes every morning. It’s like clockwork, they spend most their time at the bottom near the ponds and are always waiting in the same spot every morning.

Ever been through Dalhart and Dumas over by Amarillo? Wow, it can stink pretty bad over there.

Always helps to have an oil well. Reminds me of that joke about ranchers. Goes through a long list of all the things a cattleman needs; cows, pickup, fencing tools, corrals, etc, etc. The last line is “And a wife with a job at the courthouse.”

I’m not sure what part of Ok you’re in, but doesn’t sound like the “Green Country”. I don’t know for sure how ranchers outside the Green Country make things work. But around here (SW Mo) rotation is the key along with having a breed that will thrive entirely on grass, and enough grass to do the job. It has caused a major revival with the classic British breeds that can thrive with no grain at all. We have recently started getting steers up to 700 lb or so before sending them “to town”. Some go higher than that. The feed lots only put 200-300 lb on them with grain, and sometimes “backgrounders” buy the steers (if the season is right) and send them out to graze on the Ok and Ks wheatfields, and the feed lots put very little additional weight on them; just enough to get that “corn fed” marbling people want. So that’s why I say that a lot of the beef people are buying in the supermarkets now is very close to being “organic, grass-fed beef”, though they don’t know it.

I will say that Ok has some of the best Hereford stock I have ever seen. Herefords must do well in Ok, because I don’t see a lot of production sale flyers for other breeds come out of there.

The horse ranches in Ok must really be extensive. In June, truckload after truckload of high quality (and expensive) cool season hay is shipped to them from here; brome, alfalfa, timothy, orchardgrass/clover. I guess I can understand why Ok would be popular with horse ranchers. If you don’t have that explosive growth of cool season grass in the spring and fall, horses are much less likely to founder. Around here, if horses are going to founder, that’s when they’re going to do it.

Never been to Dalhart or Dumas, but I have been to Emporia and Parsons in Ks, where there are extensive feed lots, and I know what you mean. The smell will take the paint right off your car. But I will add that encouraging ranchers to get them heavier on the grass has cut down on feed lot usage. How much, I don’t know, but I do know that IBP (Tyson’s) got rid of its Ks feed lot operations because they were no longer sufficiently profitable. IBP is the biggest beef packer in the nation, so that’s dramatic.