The Eucharist and Glorified Body

[JimG]

ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/is-jesus-christ-physically-present-in-the-eucharist/
What does THIS mean?

<<<<<<<<<< Is Christ’s presence physical? The answer depends on what we mean by the word physical.

Human nature, including the human nature of Christ, has a physical part, the body (or, as we say, body and blood), and a spiritual part, the soul. It would be a heresy to claim that Christ is present in the Eucharist without the physical part of His human nature, or without the spiritual part of His human nature, or without His Divine Nature. So He is physically present in the sense that the physical part of His human nature is wholly present.
However, the physical part of His human nature is glorified. The Eucharist includes both His Divine Nature and His glorified human nature: a glorified soul and a glorified body. Concerning the body of Christ: we do not eat a piece of literal flesh, nor drink a cup of literal blood. We consume the whole Christ, with His glorified human nature united to His Divine Nature.

But the glorified body is still physical; it has not been changed into something spiritual, as if the human nature of Christ would then consist of a spiritual part, the soul, and another spiritual part, like a second soul.>>>>>>>>

The quote is pretty self explanatory. As has been said before, it simply means that Jesus is completely and totally present, body and soul, including all parts of his body, as well has his divinity. I think that the distinction between Christ’s earthly body and his glorified body is not as meaningful for the Eucharist as some seem to make it.

We too will have a glorified body in heaven. But it will still be a body, with all its parts. It is Jesus’ body, with all its parts, along with his blood, soul, and divinity–his totality in his human and divine natures, which is present in the Eucharist. The primary difference is that we do not perceive his accidents or appearances, because all we perceive are the accidents or appearances of bread and wine.

 

[paduard]

What does it mean for Jesus to be in His sacramental form?

This is not exactly easy to ‘understand’ as it refers to the co-existence of two separate realities.

You may find it easier to refer to the early pages (dealing with transubstantiation) - in Apologetics - Philosophy - under the topic Lumen Fidei started up by Norwich 12.

You could either ask your question there, or alternatively prefer it to be dealt with here [which may require a lot of copying from one topic to another etc.]. Personally I think it better to ask of it there as strictly speaking the matter does reside within the science of philosophy.

God Bless
Paduard

 

[Richca]

What does it mean for Jesus to be in His sacramental form?

It means that the body and blood of Christ, indeed the entire Christ, is present under the accidents or appearances of bread and wine and not according to its natural appearance as it is in heaven now or as Christ was while He was on earth ; this is quite obvious to our senses for we do not see the body and blood of Christ after the consecration of the bread and wine.

As St Thomas Aquinas explains the miracle of transubstantiation, the entire body of Christ is present under the accidents of the consecrated bread but it is unextended in three dimensional space. This is indeed one of the miracles of the Eucharist. For quantity or extension, in Aristotlelian/Thomistic philosophy, is the first accident of a material substance. Although it is natural for a material substance such as a human body to be extended in three dimensions; God, by His divine power, withholds the natural extension of Christ’s glorified body in heaven in the Eucharist. Consequently, the body and blood of Christ are present under the accidents of the bread and wine not in its natural extended form as it is in heaven, but in a unextended sacramental form. The workings of the material universe are truly amazing as we learn from science. But the miracle of the Eucharist in which God suspends the laws of nature is entirely beyond our experience and understanding.

 

[Faith1960]

It means that the body and blood of Christ, indeed the entire Christ, is present under the accidents or appearances of bread and wine and not according to its natural appearance as it is in heaven now or as Christ was while He was on earth ; this is quite obvious to our senses for we do not see the body and blood of Christ after the consecration of the bread and wine.

As St Thomas Aquinas explains the miracle of transubstantiation, the entire body of Christ is present under the accidents of the consecrated bread but it is unextended in three dimensional space. This is indeed one of the miracles of the Eucharist. For quantity or extension, in Aristotlelian/Thomistic philosophy, is the first accident of a material substance. Although it is natural for a material substance such as a human body to be extended in three dimensions; God, by His divine power, withholds the natural extension of Christ’s glorified body in heaven in the Eucharist. Consequently, the body and blood of Christ are present under the accidents of the bread and wine not in its natural extended form as it is in heaven, but in a unextended sacramental form. The workings of the material universe are truly amazing as we learn from science. But the miracle of the Eucharist in which God suspends the laws of nature is entirely beyond our experience and understanding.

Can you dumb it down for me? What does it mean when you said “but it is unextended in three dimensional space.” And “although it is natural for a material substance such as a human body to be extended in three dimensions, God by his divine power withholds the natural extension of christs glorified body in heaven in the eucharist?”

 

[Faith1960]

Can you dumb it down for me? What does it mean when you said “but it is unextended in three dimensional space.” And “although it is natural for a material substance such as a human body to be extended in three dimensions, God by his divine power withholds the natural extension of christs glorified body in heaven in the eucharist?”

And,also, “consequently the body and blood of Christ are present under accidents of bread and wine not in its natural extended form as it is in heaven but in an unintended sacramental form.”

 

[chimo]

I’m currently struggling with transubstantiation. In know it’s a mystery and can’t be put into words, but can someone try to articulate how this can happen? Can a glorified body, Jesus’s glorified body take any form it wishes?

We receive the glorified resurrected Jesus in every Holy Communion when it is celebrated in the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. We forget the possibility of which the Holy Spirit can accomplish for us and for Jesus. In every Liturgy and Mass the Holy Spirit changes or more precisely incarnates the species of bread and wine into the very Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Can a glorified body, Jesus glorified body take any form it wishes? It seems too. The Holy Spirit which is the agent to whom it can be possible for Jesus to present on the Altar is sometimes forgotten. Does Jesus need the Holy Spirit to make it possible for Him to appear at every Liturgy and Mass? It seems so. Can Jesus though appear to us in whatever age He wants to? Sure He can. At times Jesus had appeared as an infant to St. Maria Faustina many times and once He hid Himself as a very young man before revealing Himself as the Lord Jesus. Another time Jesus appeared to St. Maria as a priest because she could not go to confession because she was in the hospital and no priest was visiting her so Jesus decided to come to her as a priest to listen to her confession. What surprised St. Maria was the fact she did not recognize Him when He came and that Jesus treated her confession just like any other priest. Imagine having the Son of God personally taking your confession and personally talking to you! Can Jesus appear in many forms? Sure He can. On the Altar transubstantiation takes over as Jesus requires the Holy Spirit to be His agent to help Him to appear but outside the Altar the Lord may hide Himself at times as He had done with the saints into many physical forms.

 

[Vico]

I’m currently struggling with transubstantiation. In know it’s a mystery and can’t be put into words, but can someone try to articulate how this can happen? Can a glorified body, Jesus’s glorified body take any form it wishes?

It means that a change occurs in the gifts of bread and wine and they really become God. The appearance remains the same. Essence defines what something is, not how it appears, so bread and wine change from their original essence.

The entire Trinity is present in the Holy Body and Blood, because the Father and Holy Spirit are indirectly present through *circumincession.

Circumincession* (perichoresis or mutual immanence, a.k.a, mutual interpenitration) is defined at the Council of Florence (1442) and also is used for the mutual immanence of human and divine natures of Christ. It is because the persons of the Trinity are founded in the divine essence.

 

[Richca]

Can you dumb it down for me? What does it mean when you said “but it is unextended in three dimensional space.” And “although it is natural for a material substance such as a human body to be extended in three dimensions, God by his divine power withholds the natural extension of christs glorified body in heaven in the eucharist?”

A material body is naturally extended in the three dimensions of length, breadth, and depth and thus it occupies space and is in a place. We can see this with our eyes. On the other hand, a pure spirit such as God or the angels have no extension or material dimensions because they have no bodies that are composed of matter.
Now, the natural mode of the body of Christ or of any body is to be extended and occupy space and this is the mode of the body of Christ as he is now in heaven. For Christ rose from the dead and ascended into heaven with the same body that he lived and died in on earth though now it has taken on immortality and incorruption. The mode of the existence of the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist is supernatural and after the mode of simply substance or akin to that of a spirit which is dimensionless and unextended. For the accidents of a material substance follow upon the substance. Substance itself is indivisable and outside the order of dimensions. The first accident of a material substance which is quantity or extension extends the substance into the three dimensions of length, breadth, and depth. The entire dimensive quantity (it may help here to imagine seeing the body of Christ while he was on earth) of the body and blood of Christ is in the Eucharist but not after its proper nature of having dimensions and extension but after the manner of substance which is to have no dimensions. This is accomplished by divine power of course.

I know that this can be somewhat difficult to understand but it helps to try and grasp the Aristotelian/Thomistic concepts of substance and accident. Feel free to ask any further questions and I will try my best to answer them.

 

[Faith1960]

A material body is naturally extended in the three dimensions of length, breadth, and depth and thus it occupies space and is in a place. We can see this with our eyes. On the other hand, a pure spirit such as God or the angels have no extension or material dimensions because they have no bodies that are composed of matter.
Now, the natural mode of the body of Christ or of any body is to be extended and occupy space and this is the mode of the body of Christ as he is now in heaven. For Christ rose from the dead and ascended into heaven with the same body that he lived and died in on earth though now it has taken on immortality and incorruption. The mode of the existence of the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist is supernatural and after the mode of simply substance or akin to that of a spirit which is dimensionless and unextended. For the accidents of a material substance follow upon the substance. Substance itself is indivisable and outside the order of dimensions. The first accident of a material substance which is quantity or extension extends the substance into the three dimensions of length, breadth, and depth. The entire dimensive quantity (it may help here to imagine seeing the body of Christ while he was on earth) of the body and blood of Christ is in the Eucharist but not after its proper nature of having dimensions and extension but after the manner of substance which is to have no dimensions. This is accomplished by divine power of course.

I know that this can be somewhat difficult to understand but it helps to try and grasp the Aristotelian/Thomistic concepts of substance and accident. Feel free to ask any further questions and I will try my best to answer them.

So what you’re saying in English is Jesus’ body in the Eucharist is like a spirit, having no dimensions?

 

[Faith1960]

I’m waiting to meet with the priest referred to earlier for clarification concerning sacramental vs. human body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Faith1960]

Faith1960:
Ok.

 

[Richca]

So what you’re saying in English is Jesus’ body in the Eucharist is like a spirit, having no dimensions?

Yes, with these qualifications. Firstly, we are using spirit here as a metaphor because the body and blood of Christ are material physical realities. Secondly, the complete, quantized, individuated body of Christ with all its parts and the blood of Christ is substantially present under the accidents or appearances of the bread and wine in such a manner that the extension or dimensions of the body and blood of Christ whereby the indivdual parts of Christ’s body are extended one from the other, for example, the head is in a different part of the body than the foot, are not realized or actualized as they normally are. Normally and by nature, the substance stands under the accidents and the accidents reveal the substance of a thing. Here in Christ’s eucharistic body and blood and by divine power, the accidents of Christ’s body are in a way hidden under the substance of His body.

 

[JimG]

So what you’re saying in English is Jesus’ body in the Eucharist is like a spirit, having no dimensions?

RIchca has already answered this, but let me just add that it is important not to think of Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist as purely spiritual. Spiritual beings are distinct from material beings. (But humans are a composite being composed of both matter and spirit.) In the Eucharist the whole Christ is present, his body and blood as well as his soul and divinity. Just because we do not (in this case) perceive the normal appearance of something does not mean that it is not there.

Let me give an analogy. Perhaps I am watching a movie, even a movie in 3-D IMAX. I am looking at a movie screen, but I do not perceive the accidents (appearances) of the movie screen. I perceive rather the accidents which are projected to my vision by the projected light reflecting off the screen. But the things I see are only appearances. Beneath the appearances is the movie screen, of which I am not aware.

With the Eucharist it is just the opposite. The appearances remain exactly the same: the appearances of bread and wine. But the substance has radically changed–from bread and wine into Jesus’ body and blood.

 

[Faith1960]

Yes, with these qualifications. Firstly, we are using spirit here as a metaphor because the body and blood of Christ are material physical realities. Secondly, the complete, quantized, individuated body of Christ with all its parts and the blood of Christ is substantially present under the accidents or appearances of the bread and wine in such a manner that the extension or dimensions of the body and blood of Christ whereby the indivdual parts of Christ’s body are extended one from the other, for example, the head is in a different part of the body than the foot, are not realized or actualized as they normally are. Normally and by nature, the substance stands under the accidents and the accidents reveal the substance of a thing. Here in Christ’s eucharistic body and blood and by divine power, the accidents of Christ’s body are in a way hidden under the substance of His body.

I thought I understood but now I’m lost again.

 

[Faith1960]

RIchca has already answered this, but let me just add that it is important not to think of Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist as purely spiritual. Spiritual beings are distinct from material beings. (But humans are a composite being composed of both matter and spirit.) In the Eucharist the whole Christ is present, his body and blood as well as his soul and divinity. Just because we do not (in this case) perceive the normal appearance of something does not mean that it is not .

But the body of Jesus is glorified, right? And in being glorified, He can take any form He chooses, where in the Eucharist He is invisible under the appearance of bread and wine? Correct?

 

[Faith1960]

Yes, with these qualifications. Firstly, we are using spirit here as a metaphor because the body and blood of Christ are material physical realities. Secondly, the complete, quantized, individuated body of Christ with all its parts and the blood of Christ is substantially present under the accidents or appearances of the bread and wine in .

Glorified bodies are real bodies and spiritual bodies which is why Jesus could walk through a closed door, appear and disappear at will.

 

[JimG]

But the body of Jesus is glorified, right? And in being glorified, He can take any form He chooses, where in the Eucharist He is invisible under the appearance of bread and wine? Correct?

A glorified body is still a human body. It has such preternatural powers as being able to pass through walls, as Jesus did, able to appear at places and times of his choosing. But the fact that Jesus has a glorified body is not the reason we do not perceive his bodily characteristics in the Eucharist. The reason we do not perceive his normal physical appearances is that he is hidden under the appearances of bread and wine. The bread and wine are gone, replaced by Jesus, but the appearances of bread and wine remain. In the Eucharist, Jesus is just as bodily present as if he were standing before us, but he is present under the appearances of bread and wine.

 

[Faith1960]

A glorified body is still a human body. It has such preternatural powers as being able to pass through walls, as Jesus did, able to appear at places and times of his choosing. But the fact that Jesus has a glorified body is not the reason we do not perceive his bodily characteristics in the Eucharist. The reason we do not perceive his normal physical appearances is that he is hidden under the appearances of bread and wine. The bread and wine are gone, replaced by Jesus, but the appearances of bread and wine remain. In the Eucharist, Jesus is just as bodily present as if he were standing before us, but he is present under the appearances of bread and wine.

I don’t get it. The bread and wine are there…

 

[Faith1960]

I don’t get it. The bread and wine are there…

Maybe I need to convert to Lutheranism.

 

[JimG]

I don’t get it. The bread and wine are there…

No, the bread and wine are not there after the consecration. The bread and wine have been replaced by the body and blood of Jesus. But all the appearances of bread and wine remain.

You might want to look further into the descriptions of ‘accidents’ and ‘substance’ in Catholic philosophy. Substance is the thing itself. Appearance is what we perceive. Keep in mind that appearances–that which impinges on our senses–is ALL that we can perceive of anything. If the appearances of bread and wine remain while the substance has been changed into Jesus, all that our senses can perceive are the appearances.