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Faith1960
Guest
I felt more confident about this when reading about euharistic miracles but a person or two shot that down with their skepticism.
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Faith1960
Guest
Can you recommend something for me to read online?
O
otjm
Guest
There always have been, and always will be, skeptics. Read John 6; there were skeptics present when Christ taught about the impending miracle of the Eucharist.
They left Him.
Not the brightest of choices.
Choose wisely.
Christ taught what was to occur; many had a hard time of it; and many have had a hard time of it ever since. We can try to understand what Christ did, and the brightest minds in the world have had their say.
But in the end, it is not our understanding, but our acceptance which Christ asks of us.
That is not to suggest you should not try to understand; but ultimately, like those present in John 6, either we will accept, or we will walk away.
There is one Church, since the time of the Ascension, which has held that Christ is truly present, body, blood, soul and divinity, in the Eucharist. The others have walked away.
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Faith1960
Guest
Ok so the accidents of read and wine do not change, just the substance changes. I get that. What I don’t get is how the wine and bread arent there, when they are there.
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Faith1960
Guest
Or how Jesus body can be in the Eucharist without His being glorified playing a part in the transformation.Ok so the accidents of read and wine do not change, just the substance changes. I get that. What I don’t get is how the wine and bread arent there, when they are there.
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Faith1960
Guest
The Eucharist was shipped to a second lab via FedEx when the tests were being done
J
JimG
Guest
The only way for you to know that the bread and wine are there or aren’t there are by observing their accidents. If the accidents remain while the substance changes, you cannot possibly observe the change, nor can you perceive the underlying substance distinct from its accidents. You just have to take Our Lord’s word for the fact that the change does occur.Ok so the accidents of read and wine do not change, just the substance changes. I get that. What I don’t get is how the wine and bread arent there, when they are there.
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Faith1960
Guest
I think I’d be fine,with that if I knew,Eucharistic miracles,were true. Can you come over to the forum Fungus on Dallas Host and help explain the Catholic Churchs rules for protecting the Eucharist?
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Faith1960
Guest
Nobody?
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Faith1960
Guest
Doesn’t anyone have anything to say about that?
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Richca
Guest
The bread and wine aren’t there after the consecration because the substance of the bread and wine aren’t there; the substance of the bread and wine is converted to the substance of the body and blood of Christ while the accidents of the bread and wine remain. If you change the substance of something, than that something is no longer going to be what it was before the change of the substance. The substance is the fundamental reality of a thing, it is what a thing is, it is the essence or nature of something. After the consecration of the bread and wine, and the question is asked “What is it?” Although, it appears to look like bread and wine, it certainly is not bread or wine because the substance of bread and wine are not there. It is the body and blood of Christ because the substance of the bread and wine are changed into the substance of the body and blood of Christ.Ok so the accidents of read and wine do not change, just the substance changes. I get that. What I don’t get is how the wine and bread arent there, when they are there.
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Faith1960
Guest
Ok, so we’re talking about a philosophical or a metaphysical change or ocurrance that doesn’t make the bread and wine disappear but, instead, their accidents remain and the substance turns into Jesus’s blood and flesh.
It’s a metaphysical or philosophical wording that’s been tripping me up. Correct?
L
Linusthe2nd
Guest
You have indicated by your questions that you are somewhat confused. First of all, you are not required to understand the metaphysical explanation of what happens in transubstantion. All you are required to do is to believe, by faith, what the Church teaches in the Catechism. Don’t worry about all the other questions.
Let me just say that Christ is present, his whole body with all his body parts, his blood, his human nature and his Divine Nature - but in a glorified form ( a " spiritualized " body ) just as he appeared after His Resurrection. Except in the Sacrament His Glorified Body is present in a way that the Sacrament allows: that is He must be present in a form that allows Him to be wholly present in each crumb of the bread and in each drop of the wine.
The substances of the bread and wine have been changed into the substance of his body but the accidental properties of the bread and wine remain but in no substance. They are not attached to the substance of Christ, they " hide " His Presence, but they still taste like bread and wine.
And here is what you have to beleve from the Catechism:
" 1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."199 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."200 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."201
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. the Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. the priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.202
and St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. the power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed… Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.203
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."204
1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.205
P.S. It is horrifying to think they sent a consecrated host anywhere by any mode of public transportation. What could they have been thinking?
Linus2nd
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Faith1960
Guest
I think they did this because they wanted it to be a blind study and didnt want any bias.
K
kentcara2003
Guest
By Linus 2d
Let me just say that Christ is present, his whole body with all his body parts, his blood, his human nature and his Divine Nature - but in a glorified form ( a " spiritualized " body ) just as he appeared after His Resurrection. Except in the Sacrament His Glorified Body is present in a way that the Sacrament allows: that is He must be present in a form that allows Him to be wholly present in each crumb of the bread and in each drop of the wine.
The substances of the bread and wine have been changed into the substance of his body but the accidental properties of the bread and wine remain but in no substance. They are not attached to the substance of Christ, they " hide " His Presence, but they still taste like bread and wine.
And here is what you have to beleve from the Catechism:
" 1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."199 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."200 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."201
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. the Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. the priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.202
and St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. the power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed… Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.203
Linus2nd
I concur with Linus2nd.
It is a miracle of the 1st order.
Accidents do not exist except in substances.
And yet in this miracle of transubstantiation, there is a suspension of this natural law where the accidents of bread and wine remain but the substance is changed!
This is the claim of our Faith from the beginning.
Because of this tenet of our Faith,
Would you not think it strange, that love does not seek union with the Beloved? Challenging, don’t you think? But very essential if you are to live the Faith.
If you do so, you will suffer the Dark Night of the Senses and of the Spirit, which will eventually lead you to a greater and more profound love of Jesus and neighbour. You will need the eucharistic food, the food of the Strong to walk the Night of Faith. Without Him, unfortunately, the words of the psalm, “for 40 years I was wearied of these people and I said “these people do not know my ways”; then I took an oath in my anger; never shall they enter my rest.”(psalm), may be your lot.
It is not to strike fear into you but rather, to encourage you in this time of trial, to decide aright in the LIGHT OF FAITH.
Truly, you have been blessed to grapple this cornerstone of our Faith…
I am happy for you that you are challenged to make Jesus, as the source and summit of your spiritual life. You are on the right road. You are at the heart of the battleground. May you respond generously.
As in all stirrings of grace, the gentle call of God, need a response of Faith and hope and Love.
“May the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, enlighten the eyes of your mind to see what hope His call holds for you.” (St Paul)
You will struggle with your frailty and human weakness. Confession is also essential
to maintain the right dispositions to receive Our Lord more often…
I desire for you what I desire for myself ie. in our life, the Eucharist, becomes truly our Joy, our End , and the Pinnacle of our Days, in the midst of our trials and difficulties of life. The Gift of His Presence is worth all your efforts and hope for eternal life, countless of times over…and then some…
God bless
Kentcara2003(SSCC 3rd order)
Let me just say that Christ is present, his whole body with all his body parts, his blood, his human nature and his Divine Nature - but in a glorified form ( a " spiritualized " body ) just as he appeared after His Resurrection. Except in the Sacrament His Glorified Body is present in a way that the Sacrament allows: that is He must be present in a form that allows Him to be wholly present in each crumb of the bread and in each drop of the wine.
The substances of the bread and wine have been changed into the substance of his body but the accidental properties of the bread and wine remain but in no substance. They are not attached to the substance of Christ, they " hide " His Presence, but they still taste like bread and wine.
And here is what you have to beleve from the Catechism:
" 1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."199 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."200 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."201
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. the Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. the priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.202
and St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. the power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed… Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.203
Linus2nd
I concur with Linus2nd.
It is a miracle of the 1st order.
Accidents do not exist except in substances.
And yet in this miracle of transubstantiation, there is a suspension of this natural law where the accidents of bread and wine remain but the substance is changed!
This is the claim of our Faith from the beginning.
Because of this tenet of our Faith,
- Pope St John Paul 11 the Great, Pope Benedict, Pope Francis, celebrate daily Mass and receive the King of Kings and Lord of Lords daily.
- Mother Teresa of Calcutta doesnt open a House for the Poor in any country unless a priest accompanies them so that they may receive Him who is the source of their Strength and Joy. Incidentally, the Sisters do an hour of eucharistic adoration daily.
- St Margaret Mary, St Charbel Markhoulf, St Pascal Baylon, St Peter Julian Eymard, St Benedict Labre spend hours in eucharistic adoration. Truly fools for Christ, wasting their time adoring a piece of bread…if one does not have Faith.
Would you not think it strange, that love does not seek union with the Beloved? Challenging, don’t you think? But very essential if you are to live the Faith.
If you do so, you will suffer the Dark Night of the Senses and of the Spirit, which will eventually lead you to a greater and more profound love of Jesus and neighbour. You will need the eucharistic food, the food of the Strong to walk the Night of Faith. Without Him, unfortunately, the words of the psalm, “for 40 years I was wearied of these people and I said “these people do not know my ways”; then I took an oath in my anger; never shall they enter my rest.”(psalm), may be your lot.
It is not to strike fear into you but rather, to encourage you in this time of trial, to decide aright in the LIGHT OF FAITH.
Truly, you have been blessed to grapple this cornerstone of our Faith…
I am happy for you that you are challenged to make Jesus, as the source and summit of your spiritual life. You are on the right road. You are at the heart of the battleground. May you respond generously.
As in all stirrings of grace, the gentle call of God, need a response of Faith and hope and Love.
“May the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, enlighten the eyes of your mind to see what hope His call holds for you.” (St Paul)
You will struggle with your frailty and human weakness. Confession is also essential
to maintain the right dispositions to receive Our Lord more often…
I desire for you what I desire for myself ie. in our life, the Eucharist, becomes truly our Joy, our End , and the Pinnacle of our Days, in the midst of our trials and difficulties of life. The Gift of His Presence is worth all your efforts and hope for eternal life, countless of times over…and then some…
God bless
Kentcara2003(SSCC 3rd order)
F
fred_conty
Guest
Maybe an analogy might help. If a person puts on a sheet to cover his entire body so that nothing remains of him to be seen, and then another person carries on a conversation with him, in a sense, that is the way it is. We don’t see Jesus in the Eucharist, but he is fully there.
In the case of the sheet, one being hides another. In the case of the Eucharist, accidents of bread hides the substance. In either case, one is hid by the other.
St. Thomas says that the quantity accident is present but not present as spacial, that is different parts of his body taking up different places in space. The reason for saying that is that when the Eucharist host is broken, all of Jesus is present in each part. If the usual quantity accident using space were there, the one part of the broken host would be the part of his body that is not in the other part of the broken host. But we know that Jesus is present whole and entire in each of the parts of the broken Eucharistic host.
But having said this, then St. Thomas also says that quantity of his body is present as an accident which is upheld in a special way by God, and that all his other accidents are present too.
Which means that it is by the power and mystery of God that all of this happens and not in the usual manner that substance upholds accidents.
May God our Father give you grace and peace.
R
Richca
Guest
Well. after the consecration of the bread and wine at Mass, we can’t call what looks like bread and wine, bread and wine at all except in an analogical sense as Jesus is the bread of life and living bread. The very words “bread” and “wine” refer to the substance, essence, or nature of bread and wine. After the consecration, there is no substance of bread and wine. The only substances underlying the appearances or accidents of the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ.
The change that takes place in the Eucharist which the Church describes as a change of substance or transubstantiation which are philosophical terms is a real material change involving the whole substances of the bread and wine, not just some conceptual or formal change. Although, transubstantiation is not sense observable because the accidents of the bread and wine remain which is something that does not ordinarily occur in nature when you have a change of substance. Ordinarily, the accidents change when the substance changes as when you set fire to a log of wood and it is reduced to ashes. The accidents of the bread and wine which remain after the consecration remain without a substance and without matter by divine power.
A material substance according to the philosophy of St Thomas Aquinas and following that of Aristotle is composed of two substantial principles, namely, matter and form. So, in St Thomas’ explanation of transubstantiation whose theology on the real and substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist is in accord with the faith of the Church, the matter and form of the bread and the matter and form of the wine is changed into the matter and form of Christ’s body and blood. Thus, the whole substance of the bread. i.e., its matter and form, is changed into the substance of Christ’s body; and the whole substance of the wine, i.e., its matter and form, is changed into the substance of Christ’s blood.
An excellent book on the theology of the Eucharist since the beginnings of the Catholic Church is “The Hidden Manna, A Theology of the Eucharist” by James T. O’Connor.
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