The Eucharist - Consubstantiation? Symbolic? I don't think so

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The problem is “Real Presence” is totally different in the typical Protestant theology. It may sound like its an ecumenical theology, but its typically a refutation of the Catholic belief in Transubstantiation.

Dwight Longenecker has a real good article on it here.
When a protestant takes part in his Holy Supper and approached it properly then the effect is the same. It is a rememberance, a celebration, but also a participation. Christ abides in the protestant if he properly approaches this event. Read about how it should be approached on the Methodist website. Unfortunately, the proper spiritual attitude and the cleanliness of one’s soul is not emphasized as it should be.

Let me ask practicing catholics a question - god willing I will be one someday - all of you should go to confesssion before the Eucharist correct? If you do not, then what is the effect of the Eucharist upon you at that point? Salvation is an ongoing process, so how does it affect a catholic if you approach the altar of the eucharist in a “not worthy” attitude? sincere question:confused:
 
When a protestant takes part in his Holy Supper and approached it properly then the effect is the same. It is a rememberance, a celebration, but also a participation. Christ abides in the protestant if he properly approaches this event. Read about how it should be approached on the Methodist website. Unfortunately, the proper spiritual attitude and the cleanliness of one’s soul is not emphasized as it should be.

Let me ask practicing catholics a question - god willing I will be one someday - all of you should go to confesssion before the Eucharist correct? If you do not, then what is the effect of the Eucharist upon you at that point? Salvation is an ongoing process, so how does it affect a catholic if you approach the altar of the eucharist in a “not worthy” attitude? sincere question:confused:
Well,You could be entering into the territory of knowingly committing sin, which makes it a mortal sin.Which is a big deal…

It’s important to understand that we need to confess our sins with openheartedness & without overly interpreting our sins or having any expectations. Then having confessed we let our spiritual father decide about communion or about any other advice he wishes to give.

The danger we fall into if we interpret too much before confessing is that we deny the freedom of the priest to use discernment. For example we do a certain sin many times over. This is actually quite common as the years go by. But very often we will see that our spiritual father responds to the sin in different ways each time.

Simply put the Church tells us to examine our conscience and then with simplicity of heart just confess the sin. We need to let our spiritual father give the interpretation we need to hear at that particular time.

Secondly, temptation of thought is not the same as falling into the act. But again we shouldn’t analyze this too much in terms of our own sins. It could very well be that one person’s fall in thought is more serious than another’s fall in action. Again we need to allow our spiritual father room to make these assessments.
 
By the way, grrrreaaat article about this phenomenon. I can see that there are a number of misconceptions about this - bith on the catholice side and the protestant side. Very educational. The approach by protestants shouls be one on humility and repentance when one approaches the chalice. But not accepting as corporeal presence does not mean one’s faith is compromised - just one cannot be a catholic I guess. We will know when we get “there”…
 
The problem is “Real Presence” is totally different in the typical Protestant theology. It may sound like its an ecumenical theology, but its typically a refutation of the Catholic belief in Transubstantiation.

Dwight Longenecker has a real good article on it here.
This is a really good article.I bookmarked the page.Oddly enough what stuck out to me the most was this;

“So what should Catholics do when confronted with this confusing term ‘real presence’? First of all Catholics should realize that it is not a Catholic term at all. It’s history is mostly Anglican, and as such it was always used as a way to adroitly sidestep the troublesome doctrine of transubstantiation; and as such it is not an accurate term to describe true Catholic Eucharistic doctrine.”

I never knew that.But,it’s probably trivial,at best, anyway…

I had always cosidered the terms to be synonymous.
 
I am very hesitant about youtube videos.But this one caught my attention.I am not going to claim that it’s not a fake.But,I can’t see anything that looks it is…
I’ve watched it many times.It feels real,…but,then again,…I suppose I may just want it to be.It’s a cool concept.Y’know?😊

youtube.com/watch?v=A5zsvHFDCs4
Thanks for this link. I had to watch it without sound – never had the speakers connected. What was the actual miracle? It looked like something was changing back and forth.
There was the feeling that something was missing like footage of the local Bishop or Cardinal.

This whole topic of Eucharistic miracles adds a new dimension to learning about the Real Presence. Thank you for your contribution.

It seems like these posts are flying like the owls in Harry Potter. (I’m in book five.) Maybe the following has been suggested. Maybe not. I would suggest that people reading this thread check out the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy, which has been mentioned in recent posts. Go to post 324 for the link. After reading the very good article, go to the top of the page to the right, click the box “miracles”. Then click English. This should take you to the main page of the Vatican International Exhibit of the Eucharistic Miracles of the World. Scroll down forever to the list of miracles by country, then to Italy and finally to the two links with pictures taken at Lanciano. Then explore this website. I will be happy to answer questions.

Please note that while Eucharistic miracles continue to edify and inspire us, Catholics are not obliged to believe in them. Catholics are obliged to believe that Jesus Christ is substantially present in the Holy Eucharist.

Blessings for 2009,
grannymh
 
Thanks for this link. I had to watch it without sound – never had the speakers connected. What was the actual miracle? It looked like something was changing back and forth.
There was the feeling that something was missing like footage of the local Bishop or Cardinal.

This whole topic of Eucharistic miracles adds a new dimension to learning about the Real Presence. Thank you for your contribution.

It seems like these posts are flying like the owls in Harry Potter. (I’m in book five.) Maybe the following has been suggested. Maybe not. I would suggest that people reading this thread check out the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy, which has been mentioned in recent posts. Go to post 324 for the link. After reading the very good article, go to the top of the page to the right, click the box “miracles”. Then click English. This should take you to the main page of the Vatican International Exhibit of the Eucharistic Miracles of the World. Scroll down forever to the list of miracles by country, then to Italy and finally to the two links with pictures taken at Lanciano. Then explore this website. I will be happy to answer questions.

Please note that while Eucharistic miracles continue to edify and inspire us, Catholics are not obliged to believe in them. Catholics are obliged to believe that Jesus Christ is substantially present in the Holy Eucharist.

Blessings for 2009,
grannymh
The broken bread of the Eucharist, consecrated during the Mass, suddenly begins to bleed. It is conserved in a tabernacle and when venerated begins to pulse like a human heart…

At least that is what is claimed.
 
I am very hesitant about youtube videos.But this one caught my attention.I am not going to claim that it’s not a fake.But,I can’t see anything that looks it is…
I’ve watched it many times.It feels real,…but,then again,…I suppose I may just want it to be.It’s a cool concept.Y’know?😊

youtube.com/watch?v=A5zsvHFDCs4
I prefer this teaching:
You believe because you have seen, Thomas? Blessed are those who haven’t seen and still believe”!
 
I prefer this teaching:
You believe because you have seen, Thomas? Blessed are those who haven’t seen and still believe”!
👍 Oh,yes.At the risk of sounding ultra-pious,I KNOW that Jesus is there.When I’m out of communion, I ball so hard I have to leave.The feeling of having disappointing Our Lord is so overwhelming,that it is literally sobbing and snot.:bighanky:

I have seen it with other folks,too.So,I know I’m not the only one.You may have posted the same sentiment also, NotWorthy.

This is also the time when I feel His presence the same way I know the feeling of my Wife or my Dad or Mom or Kids.Each presence has their own ‘vibe’. When I am having that ‘gotta evangelize feeling’, I wish I could communicate this more than anything else, because it is the clincher for me.
 
When a protestant takes part in his Holy Supper and approached it properly then the effect is the same. It is a rememberance, a celebration, but also a participation. Christ abides in the protestant if he properly approaches this event. Read about how it should be approached on the Methodist website. Unfortunately, the proper spiritual attitude and the cleanliness of one’s soul is not emphasized as it should be.
Wrong. Just ask a Protestant if he is taking part in the Sacrifice. Since the earliest times, Catholics have taught this.
Let me ask practicing catholics a question - god willing I will be one someday - all of you should go to confesssion before the Eucharist correct? If you do not, then what is the effect of the Eucharist upon you at that point? Salvation is an ongoing process, so how does it affect a catholic if you approach the altar of the eucharist in a “not worthy” attitude? sincere question:confused:
Yes, if you are in a state of mortal sin, you should refrain from going to communion until you’ve gone to confession. St. Paul’s words in Corinthians tell us that we eat and drink condemnation on ourself if we are not in a worthy state.
 
Hi, NotWorthy,

This is correct.
No, I don’t think this is right.

The accidents is what the substance looks like. In transubstantiation, the accidents remain the same, while the substance transforms into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
When I teach about the Eucharist, I identify my ‘accidents’: height, weight, color, less hair to comb this month then last! 😃 But, I would still be ‘me’ with no hair, or shorter or taller, less weight or more, etc. 🙂

God bless
 
“Oh, Lord I am not worthy to come under your roof, but only say the word, and I will be healed.” This is an act of faith, contrition and humility.
We bow before the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, contrite and humble, then receive Him, and are healed.
As Catholics, we believe the priest is taking the place of Christ as he consecrates the bread and wine. We believe we can confess to a priest, as he represents Christ, no matter that he is also a sinner, he is ordained to do this, and absolve our sins.
We believe in Apostolic succession which was broken by Luther, and further splintered by Knox, Calvin and Swengli.
The Sacraments are where the Divine meets the Profane. (Profane in the archaic sense, of ‘earthly’) they are where the spiritual meets the human.
And, I’m sorry if this disappoints the protesters/protestants, but you don’t have them, because the line of succession was broken.

As for the host turning into “real blood and flesh”, I’m almost certain that these are hoaxes by people who are saying, “You want to eat flesh and blood, then ,here, eat them!” Jesus said the bread is his body, and we humbly, contritely, and faithfully take Him at His word.
Some of these hoaxes have been proven to have real human blood-- but the DNA is female! Or it’s meat from a butcher shop. I don’t think the Church condones any of them, or keeps them around to see if they rot, or any of that type of thing, which I consider a mean-spirited act on the part of someone who doesn’t understand faith, where God meets us in the middle, where Christ is still fully present.
I also know that as a child, when we heard stories of saints who had these experiences we wanted so badly to be a saint like that! To have a vision! Like Bernadette, or the three children at Fatima, that some of our friends saw the statue of Mary in church smile at them.
Don’t get me wrong, I know Mary smiles. (She’s probably smiling at me as I write this, as only a mother can do.) But statues with solemn faces don’t smile. I guess that is “wishful thinking”.
Code:
Marcus Grodi had a former member of Willow Creek Church near Wheaton, IL on his (EWTN) Journey Home program recently.  (Dr Steven Smith, now a professor at a Catholic Seminary in Maryland).  Willow Creek is the end result of Evangelization and splintering without anything substantial.  It is "non-denominational", so as not to frighten off un-believers.  There is no liturgy, no order, nothing connecting one week's events to the next.  
They take a Verse from the New Testament and preach about it.  No continuity.  No rituals.
And the best part is, you cannot tell that this is a church!! It is an auditorium, with a stage. No altar, no beauty, just hi-tech light shows and entertainment. And it’s all NEW Testament, EXCEPT for the part about tithing.
This church is huge. Not huge the way the Catholic Church is huge, all under one Pope, but huge in numbers to the point where if someone breaks off-- and they do-- they are basically starting a whole new church.
The problem that Dr Smith had was, “we can bring in people and save them, and entertain them-- especially the kids and teens, but— then what?” (my paraphrase).
Are we supposed to be entertained at church? I don’t know, but I go to movies, plays, libraries, coffee shops, etc for entertainment.
Should we be uplifted and grow closer to God through worship that is beautiful and meaningful? Enough that we want to go out and share the Good News? Absolutely!
But the connected-ness, the family that I find in my tiny parish is enriched by the fact that I know that all over the world, there are other Catholics who are saying the same Bible readings, the same prayers, the same hymns, and most of all receiving Our Lord in the Eucharist, as passed down through the ages and kept together as the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

We remember how You loved us when You died, and now we celebrate that You are with us still. We remember, we celebrate, we believe.
He loves us.
All of us,
and I am so thankful.
 
“Oh, Lord I am not worthy to come under your roof, but only say the word, and I will be healed.” .
… We remember how You loved us when You died, and now we celebrate that You are with us still. We remember, we celebrate, we believe.
He loves us.
All of us,
and I am so thankful.
Dear Katrina5,

I found myself singing-- in my heart-- with you at your close.

As for hoaxes regarding the Holy Eucharist, my reply is that over the centuries, there have been numerous Eucharistic miracles which restored faith in Jesus Christ substantially present under the signs of bread and wine. Regardless of the kind of extraordinary phenomenon connected with the Eucharist, the message is that the Eucharist is not symbolic.

**In thebroad sense, **Eucharistic miracles can be useful in a catechesis on Transubstantiation because they challenge us to look beyond the limits of ** perceptible science. They lead us to the presence of Divine Mystery. The result of these miracles was that people experienced a conversion. Doubt became belief. Disrespect became reverence.

For many people, these Eucharistic miracles have deepened their faith so that they have a greater appreciation and understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. For them, Holy Communion is no longer a routine but a privileged union with our Lord and Savior. Eucharistic miracles call for a greater holiness
of life.

What needs to be remembered is that our faith in the Eucharist is first of all founded on the proclamation of Jesus Christ.

There are Eucharistic miracles which have been recognized by local bishops. Some have been recognized by Popes. Catholics are not** obliged to believe in any of them. The Eucharistic miracles are considered “private” revelations (CCC #65-67, “Christ Jesus - Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation”). Catholics are obliged to believe that Jesus Christ,
the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is substantially present in the Eucharist.

Sadly, there are hoaxes. And I agree with you that they are a mean-spirited act on the part of someone who doesn’t understand faith. Perhaps one way to counter this is to make a visit to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Blessings for 2009,
grannymh
 
Katrina5;:
Dear Katrina5,

I found myself singing-- in my heart-- with you at your close.

As for hoaxes regarding the Holy Eucharist, my reply is that over the centuries, there have been numerous Eucharistic miracles which restored faith in Jesus Christ substantially present under the signs of bread and wine. Regardless of the kind of extraordinary phenomenon connected with the Eucharist, the message is that the Eucharist is not symbolic.

**In thebroad sense, **Eucharistic miracles can be useful in a catechesis on Transubstantiation because they challenge us to look beyond the limits of ** perceptible science. They lead us to the presence of Divine Mystery. The result of these miracles was that people experienced a conversion. Doubt became belief. Disrespect became reverence.

For many people, these Eucharistic miracles have deepened their faith so that they have a greater appreciation and understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. For them, Holy Communion is no longer a routine but a privileged union with our Lord and Savior. Eucharistic miracles call for a greater holiness
of life.

What needs to be remembered is that our faith in the Eucharist is first of all founded on the proclamation of Jesus Christ.

There are Eucharistic miracles which have been recognized by local bishops. Some have been recognized by Popes. Catholics are not** obliged to believe in any of them. The Eucharistic miracles are considered “private” revelations (CCC #65-67, “Christ Jesus - Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation”). Catholics are obliged to believe that Jesus Christ,
the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is substantially present in the Eucharist.

Sadly, there are hoaxes. And I agree with you that they are a mean-spirited act on the part of someone who doesn’t understand faith. Perhaps one way to counter this is to make a visit to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Blessings for 2009,
grannymh
 
Katrina5;4620478.:
Dear Katrina5,

I found myself singing-- in my heart-- with you at your close.

As for hoaxes regarding the Holy Eucharist, my reply is that over the centuries, there have been numerous Eucharistic miracles which restored faith in Jesus Christ substantially present under the signs of bread and wine. Regardless of the kind of extraordinary phenomenon connected with the Eucharist, the message is that the Eucharist is not symbolic.

In the broad sense, Eucharistic miracles can be useful in a catechesis on Transubstantiation because they challenge us to look beyond the limits of perceptible science. They lead us to the presence of Divine Mystery. The result of these miracles was that people experienced a conversion. Doubt became belief. Disrespect became reverence.

For many people, these Eucharistic miracles have deepened their faith so that they have a greater appreciation and understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. For them, Holy Communion is no longer a routine but a privileged union with our Lord and Savior. Eucharistic miracles call for a greater holiness of life.

What needs to be remembered is that our faith in the Eucharist is first of all founded on the proclamation of Jesus Christ.

There are Eucharistic miracles which have been recognized by local bishops. Some have been recognized by Popes. Catholics are not obliged to believe in any of them. The Eucharistic miracles are considered “private” revelations (CCC #65-67, “Christ Jesus - Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation”). Catholics are obliged to believe that Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is substantially present in the Eucharist.

Sadly, there are hoaxes. And I agree with you that they are a mean-spirited act on the part of someone who doesn’t understand faith. Perhaps one way to counter this is to make a visit to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Blessings for 2009,
grannymh
 
Dear Katrina5,

I found myself singing-- in my heart-- with you at your close.

As for hoaxes regarding the Holy Eucharist, my reply is that over the centuries, there have been numerous Eucharistic miracles which restored faith in Jesus Christ substantially present under the signs of bread and wine. Regardless of the kind of extraordinary phenomenon connected with the Eucharist, the message is that the Eucharist is not symbolic.

In the broad sense, Eucharistic miracles can be useful in a catechesis on Transubstantiation because they challenge us to look beyond the limits of perceptible science. They lead us to the presence of Divine Mystery. The result of these miracles was that people experienced a conversion. Doubt became belief. Disrespect became reverence.

For many people, these Eucharistic miracles have deepened their faith so that they have a greater appreciation and understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. For them, Holy Communion is no longer a routine but a privileged union with our Lord and Savior. Eucharistic miracles call for a greater holiness of life.

What needs to be remembered is that our faith in the Eucharist is first of all founded on the proclamation of Jesus Christ.

There are Eucharistic miracles which have been recognized by local bishops. Some have been recognized by Popes. Catholics are not obliged to believe in any of them. The Eucharistic miracles are considered “private” revelations (CCC #65-67, “Christ Jesus - Mediator and Fullness of All Revelation”). Catholics are obliged to believe that Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is substantially present in the Eucharist.

Sadly, there are hoaxes. And I agree with you that they are a mean-spirited act on the part of someone who doesn’t understand faith. Perhaps one way to counter this is to make a visit to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

Blessings for 2009,
grannymh
You are absolutely right. One of the things I love about this forum is the intelligent intercahange of ideas, and the deep knowledge base of many of the posters.
I recently re-read a book published in 1983 and the author wrote about Holy Saturday when the Eucharist was removed from the tabernacle and the door was left slightly ajar. She said, “this is how it is in Protestant churches all the time.”
It gave me chills, remembering that slightly ajar door, and the same lesson from our religion classes.
Our church has a side chapel for the Eucharist. It makes me sad, that the most important Person in church has to be on the sidelines.
We have Eucharistic Adoration every Friday, and I am thankful for that. It is so peaceful, and I come away renewed.
And I do appreciate the fact that miracles have brought people into the faith, and if that is what it takes, then I believe God wants that!
We have a rich, beautiful treasure in our Catholic faith. We have been told to share it with the world. Every little way we can do it-- wearing a crucifix, saying grace before eating and then making the sign of the cross-- we never know who this may touch, with whom we share the Good News and not even know it. Someone who sees this knows we are faithful and it may speak to them…“Maybe I need to go back to Mass.” Those are miracles, too.
Thank you so much for responding to my post!
Katrina
 
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