The Eucharist is NOT the body of Christ

[ajk19]

You forget that “Church” means “assembly.” There is no “assembly” where there is only “a” believer. You are pulling a definition out of thin air, and you are therefore imposing your own authority, of which you have none.

Matthew 18:
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So would 3 people in his name not qualify to you?

Christ told his followers to “take it to the church” and treat those who don’t listen to it as gentiles and tax collectors. Whether you think of a local or universal church, it is physical, real, and visible.

Ah but, you forget two key passages before he says this:

Matthew 18: 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16: But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Then and only then does he say:
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

 

[ajk19]

So if you’re rejecting the Real Presence, how did the Apostles fail in their teaching? How did ALL of the leaders of Christianity just ONE GENERATION after the Apostles get it wrong? How would the Romans have come up with such a rumor (about cannibalism) if not from misunderstanding the Real Presence? If you are correct, Christians, from around 100 AD onward, were practicing a lie, that wasn’t corrected for at least 1400 years!

It is absolutely the truth that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Now I need to know how to interpret it. Who am I going to regard more highly, your interpretation, or the interpretation of those that knew the Apostles and were trained by them. They are ALL in agreement. You are the dissenting voice. Why should I choose you?

I can sum it up in one line: It is the narrow road that leads to Heaven, few will choose it and many will take the wide road. Which road do you think you’re on?

 

[Rolltide]

I can sum it up in one line: It is the narrow road that leads to Heaven, few will choose it and many will take the wide road. Which road do you think you’re on?

Given that the Early Church Fathers walked the narrow road and most died as martyrs for the faith, I think I’m in good company, thank you…

 

[LilyM]

Nice try, but have you not forgotten…

Deut. 12:4, 6, “You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you,” Verse 6, “Keep therefore and do them for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations.”

and…
Deut. 12:32, “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it; you shall not add thereto, nor take away from it.”

So EVERY BOOK OF THE BIBLE after Deuteronomy can be disregarded in its entirety then.

All the prophets after Moses, including Jesus and His followers. Makes scripture study a lot easier

By the way, talking about taking away from these precious five books - do you observe Levitical law to the letter (since Leviticus is one of the five)? Eat pork or shellfish? Wear clothing of more than two types of fibre? Are the menfolk of your family ritually circumcised? The womenfolk ritually purified after childbirth?

 

[ajk19]

You completely missed my point. How many billion Catholics are there in the world? How many people in the past claimed to have it right? Would seem to be quite a wide road to me. Besides that remember what happened to those denounced Catholicism back in the day, death.

 

[porthos11]

Matthew 18:
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So would 3 people in his name not qualify to you?

Three people can already qualify, and indeed there are such assemblies in the persecuted parts of the world. But you did not say two or three. You said “a” believer, meaning you subscribe to the individual believer as a church, which is flat unbiblical.

Ah but, you forget two key passages before he says this:

Matthew 18: 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16: But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Then and only then does he say:
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

And you try to disprove our point by actually proving it? You are only reinforcing that the Church has final authority, even after individual pastoring, hardly the thing that fits the “invisible church” theory you are advancing. A Church that is to be listened to has to be by definition one that is physical and tangible.

 

[Rolltide]

In all seriousness, I’m genuinely interested in your line of argument here. What precisely went so horribly wrong between the first and second generation of Christians? If the Apostles did, in fact, fail to teach anyone correctly, that deeply troubles me, as it is evidence that the Holy Spirit was not actually protecting their mission, as Jesus said.

 

[Rolltide]

You completely missed my point. How many billion Catholics are there in the world? How many people in the past claimed to have it right? Would seem to be quite a wide road to me. Besides that remember what happened to those denounced Catholicism back in the day, death.

Yes, but as in any religion, how many of the billion Catholics actually fully practice their faith? The road is narrow within Catholicism.

 

[SPH1]

Matthew 18:
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So would 3 people in his name not qualify to you?

Good you brought this up. Because it conclusively establishes that there is a means of having Christ among us which we absolutely cannot have when alone.

Now, as I belive you yourself indicated, the Eucharist was the means by which Christ wanted to be “remembered” (as opposed to Crucifixes.) Above all else, gathering in Christ’s name means the Eucharist, the only thing by which Christ said He was to be remembered.

 

[porthos11]

You completely missed my point. How many billion Catholics are there in the world? How many people in the past claimed to have it right? Would seem to be quite a wide road to me. Besides that remember what happened to those denounced Catholicism back in the day, death.

I also remind you of those who denounced Protestantism, back in the day.

And I also remind you what happened to those who embraced Catholicism centuries before Protestantism. They too shed their blood.

So don’t claim the “we have martyrs” sob story for yourself. Your Protestant history isn’t as spotless as you’d like.

 

[ajk19]

Possibly so, but wouldn’t you say it is somewhat narrower for those that are not or denounced the Catholic faith, given how big it’s body is that is.

 

[ajk19]

Good you brought this up. Because it conclusively establishes that there is a means of having Christ among us which we absolutely cannot have when alone.

Now, as I belive you yourself indicated, the Eucharist was the means by which Christ wanted to be “remembered” (as opposed to Crucifixes.) Above all else, gathering in Christ’s name means the Eucharist, the only thing by which Christ said He was to be remembered.

I think you said the keyword there, that is remembered, not offered up again, he was offered up once and for all.

 

[porthos11]

Possibly so, but wouldn’t you say it is somewhat narrower for those that are not or denounced the Catholic faith, given how big it’s body is that is.

Why? The Catholic faith has some of the most inconvenient teachings to modern ears, while other “churches” are capitulating to secular pressure left and right.

Catholics may not be thrown to the lions nowadays, but even today, it is still acceptable to mock the Catholic faith when no one would dare say the same things to Muslims or Jews, and Protestants are not even in the radar.

 

[porthos11]

I think you said the keyword there, that is remembered, not offered up again, he was offered up once and for all.

Again you only show how weak your knowledge of the New Testament is.

Brush up on your Greek.

 

[ajk19]

Simply because of the size of the Church, that would indicate a wide road, with all the billions that attest to it.

 

[Rolltide]

Besides that remember what happened to those denounced Catholicism back in the day, death.

Like the German Peasant’s rebellion which Luther had crushed, resulting in the death of 75,000 - 100,000 people?

Like the people John Calvin had burned at the stake in Geneva for false belief?

Like the Salem Witch Trials?

Like the Catholics that were tortured, executed, and burned under various monarchies in England?

Like those killed by the Lutherans and Calvinists in the Thirty Year’s War?

Violence was endemic to the era, and ALL denominations had serious issues with it. The Catholic Church simply stands out because of its size, but if you look at the percentage of people persecuted, it’s the same. You’re buying into the Black Legend, which ALL serious historians rejected years ago, both secular and religious.

(BTW… I’m a professional historian at a small Southern college, so I can back that up if you like.)

 

[Rolltide]

Ajk19, I’m still concerned…

Where did the Apostles go wrong? HOW could they have failed to properly preach to anyone?

 

[WitnessToHope]

No but there is enough there to suffice. Remember the Bible says to not add or take away from it (something which the Catholic Church breaches with it’s traditions apart from scripture).

You stated you’re looking for a Protestant church to join since the Catholic faith is not to your suiting. Are you okay with joining a denomination that freely removed books and verses from Scripture as a result of the Reformation in order to support their beliefs? If you’re truly concerned about the canon of Scripture then I would assume you’d stay with the Catholic Church given it was the Church that compiled the Bible.

Witness to Hope

 

[lak611]

Simply because of the size of the Church, that would indicate a wide road, with all the billions that attest to it.

The numbers are meaningless if the people are not actually practicing their faith.

 

[porthos11]

Simply because of the size of the Church, that would indicate a wide road, with all the billions that attest to it.

Again, you resort to simply picking criteria out of thin air. Size has nothing to do with correctness. Sad to say, many Catholics are going to hell because they are Catholic in name only, without taking the teachings of Christ seriously.

Then there are people like you, who walk away from the inconvenient truth of the Eucharist, with such flimsy “knowledge” of the Bible. Nope, the Catholic way is not the wide way. If you want the wide way, try Episcopalianism, or some of those new politically-correct “churches” that crop up once in a while.