The Eucharist is NOT the body of Christ

[valient_Lucy]

That’s kinda ridiculous. I understand God has no limits as far as time goes, but the past is still the past.

Not to God. Think of it this way. When you are reading a book, you can jump from beginning to end and to various points in the middle, because we exist outside of the book. The characters in the book, however, cannot do that, and can only experience the book in a straight forward manner.

God is not only the reader of the book, He is the Author of the book. The past is still the past, TO US, because we are bound by the convention of time. But God created the concept of time, and is not controlled by it. Quite the contrary, He controls time. Do you think God only exists in the present? Does He exist in the past and the future as well?

 

[valient_Lucy]

Totally different, those are all taped, this is happening every day live. Big difference.

Christ does not die again and again. Therefore, he is not being re-sacrificed.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I concur. We aren’t trying to be mean. We are challenging you to understand the full context of the scriptures you’re quoting.

I agree. Sometimes, we might come off as sounding mean, and that’s understandable. We’re only human, and we love Our Lord Jesus the Christ and the Catholic Faith, so we are passionate about defending both of them. But no one is really trying to be mean. We are trying to challenge your arguments and to help you understand Scripture better, and we really do care about you. I’m sorry to hear that you are having personal problems, and I hope your life improves.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I think there could be other ways to explain-speculate on this. For one, Jesus’ resurrection took place in our universe i.e. space time. Something happened to His body after the resurrection that goes beyond our understanding.

Since we know so little of the nature of the universe and reality its difficult to know how this was done. If you look at many of the miracles of Christ it appears He had the ability to manipulate matter and energy in ways we can only imagine. If anything He had complete control of nature.

So God has complete control of matter and energy, but not time? If God is not in control of time, how can he be omnipotent?

 

[chrislky]

So then Christ never left the cross? Is that what you are saying?

1 Corinthians 11:26

For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Chris

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

No more sacrifices need be made, he made one sacrifice for us all, ONE.

Please, AJK, read again my questions. This simply doesn’t answer my question. You just repeated what you’ve said several times before and what we already disproved. So once again:

So, what is Jesus, Eternal High Priest in Heaven, sacrificing in heaven?

Or is he a High Priest in Heaven without make any sacrifices there?

What would be the point? How could he be a High Priest there without making any sacrifices (HINT: He doesn’t have to do many separate sacrifices)?

 

[agangbern]

What I mean is that it happened once, not over and over. That’s what I mean by the past is the past. Once it happened, it was done, and that was it.

Yes, it is not “over and over”. The mass is not a repetition of the crucifixion in calvary. The mass is one with that crucifixion. How could we separate a flame from the fire? The flame is one with the fire.

 

[guanophore]

No not all of Christian history, just the Catholic Church.

Well my friend, if you continue your studies, you will soon learn that the vast majority of Christian History is about the Catholic Church. There were no “denominations” until 1050 when the Eastern and Western Catholics split from one another. Then there was nothing but Eastern and Western Catholic for another 500 years.

By making statements that the church, as early as the second generation (Justin Martyr) got it wrong, you are basically calling Jesus a liar. He did not keep His promise to “remain with you always” or to give His Spirit to “lead you into all truth”.

Testing it against Scripture.

This is an important criteria to use, however, it is necessary to do so with an understanding of what the original writers meant, instead of our modern projection into the text. This can be found by studying what the understanding was of the writers, their practices and theology.

Again he was not speaking literally, I’m not calling Him a liar, but simply saying you and others have misinterpreted Him. He was using the bread and wine, as a means to symbolize what he was about to do, that is die on the cross for all.

On what grounds do you determine that He was not speaking literally? On the grounds that you have previously determined that the “Catholic” understanding is wrong? Yes, Jesus did use bread adn wine to symbolize what he was about to do. Yet these symbols, like Himself, also embody what they represent. Those who have seen Jesus have seen the Father, as He is the image (symbol) of the eternal God. He embodies that which He represents.

 

[guanophore]

I think you said the keyword there, that is remembered, not offered up again, he was offered up once and for all.

I am glad you are finally “getting” this, ajk. I hope you will now look at the rememberance meal of the Passover, which pre-figures the Lord’s Supper. When you do this you will see that the ceremony of rememberance makes the participants present at the miracle of the Passover, just as the Lord’s supper makes us present at the Sacrifice of the Eternal Lamb

.

In a lot of things, confession, Mary, etc. None of that is really of the Bible. It is simply false doctrine.

Let’s stick to the issue of the thread before we move on. The question being posed to you is, where and how did the Apostles go wrong in the first century with the teaching on the Eucharist? How did Paul get off track teaching that, if someone eats the Body and Blood in an unworthy manner, he brings death upon Himself? How and when did the Apostles teach it wrong so that the Romans thought they were practicing cannabilism? After we settle this one, we can move on to the other areas of Catholicism about which you have been misled.

Fair enough, but what about these:

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. " Psalm 32:5

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9

“Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?” Mark 2:7

and what about Peter’s example? What happened when someone came to him?

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8: 18-22

This belongs on another thread, as does the violence of Christians against one another. Suffice it to say, why bother to confess your sins to someone who could not forgive them? James says to go to the Elders of the Church. Also, when you read the sentence right after this one where Peter urges Simon to repent, you can clearly see that he asks PETER to intercede for Him. Peter and the other Apostles act “in persona Christi” (in the Person of Christ). Confessing sins to them is the same as confessing them to Jesus, as He empowered them. He who hears them hears Jesus.

 

[travelingrns]

AJK, I’d like to make a quick note about the Passover meal before Christ’s crucifixion. Every Jew in the known world that night was having three things to eat. 1. Bread 2. Wine (These two in rememberence of Malchezedek) 3. Meat (Lamb) **There were 13 jews in the world that night who ate no lamb.**There is remarkably no mention of lamb at all at the last supper except for the Lamb of God who became real flesh for us to partake. He is the new covenant THE NEW MEAT, THE LAMB.
Just for reference I too left the church for a number of years searching at a non-denominational church. It sounds like you are where I was. God leads us to do things for his reasons alone. I learned much outside of the church. All I ask is that when that whole inside can no longer be filled by the non-denominational church that you look back home. The Mass is SACRED. Its not entertainment (most of us will attest to this), its not going to make you feel warm and fuzzy until you can recognize that Christ is absolutely present in the Eucharist. Then you don’t get warm and fuzzy you get SHOCK, AWE and REVERENCE. Finally, you can TRUST God. I’m very glad you have posted here its builds us all up. God Bless You on your Journey

 

[mercygate]

He sounds like an interesting person. I’ll have to do some reading on him some day.

WARNING! Even as a Catholic, you cannot read Wesley without realizing that this is a man who was very close to Christ, fervent in his faith, profound in his spirituality.

When Msgr. Ronald Knox was writing his book on quietism, he found himself very sympathetic to Wesley. The Christian world would do well to engage in a revival of his works.

 

[LilyM]

AJK, I’d like to make a quick note about the Passover meal before Christ’s crucifixion. Every Jew in the known world that night was having three things to eat. 1. Bread 2. Wine (These two in rememberence of Malchezedek) 3. Meat (Lamb) **There were 13 jews in the world that night who ate no lamb.**There is remarkably no mention of lamb at all at the last supper except for the Lamb of God who became real flesh for us to partake. He is the new covenant THE NEW MEAT, THE LAMB.
Just for reference I too left the church for a number of years searching at a non-denominational church. It sounds like you are where I was. God leads us to do things for his reasons alone. I learned much outside of the church. All I ask is that when that whole inside can no longer be filled by the non-denominational church that you look back home. The Mass is SACRED. Its not entertainment (most of us will attest to this), its not going to make you feel warm and fuzzy until you can recognize that Christ is absolutely present in the Eucharist. Then you don’t get warm and fuzzy you get SHOCK, AWE and REVERENCE. Finally, you can TRUST God. I’m very glad you have posted here its builds us all up. God Bless You on your Journey

So, there’s no mention of the bitter herbs either, but they certainly had those - every Passover supper did. Just because lamb isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean they didn’t have it.

 

[StBenMom]

You know… the bottom line remains. The ONLY reason that matters to me: “Do this in remembrance of Me” Can’t deny the very words of our Lord.

 

[mercygate]

In a lot of things, confession, Mary, etc. None of that is really of the Bible. It is simply false doctrine.

You have got to be trolling. Confession and Mary not in the Bible? Gimme a BREAK!

There is no teaching or practice of the Catholic faith that cannot be supported from Scripture. Not ONE.

 

[mercygate]

Fair enough, but what about these:

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. " Psalm 32:5

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9

“Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?” Mark 2:7

and what about Peter’s example? What happened when someone came to him?

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8: 18-22

Oh! WAIT! I GET it! When we go to confession with a priest, Jesus LEAVES the room!!! Aaahhh! How STUPID of us.

Catholics and the Orthodox do not believe that Jesus gave His priests the authority to forgive sin so that He doesn’t have to do it Himself.

You have been fed the idea that everything is EITHER one thing OR another, when in fact, things are often BOTH/AND.

 

[mercygate]

To one another yes, however that does not mean that in doing so, you are then forgiven for your sins. Only God can do it, no one else but.

I honestly didn’t even realize that the Pharisees said this. Nevertheless, you mentioned that God alone forgives sins through the ministry of his priests. Sorry that doesn’t work, you can’t have it both ways. The Bible says that there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. That’s it and that’s all. Either God alone forgives, or he doesn’t.

There you go again: Either/Or. Step back. Take a deep breath. Ask Our Lady’s question: How can this be? And stop declaring with your own understanding: **This cannot be! **

 

[Ignatius2000]

There you go again: Either/Or. Step back. Take a deep breath. Ask Our Lady’s question: How can this be? And stop declaring with your own understanding: **This cannot be! **

That is a very good point to bring up, Mercygate! And entirely part of the reason the Catholic Church holds Mary so close–she answered God’s call with faith, not with human understanding. She is a perfect example for us ALL (Catholic and Protestant) to follow because of her faith.

 

[mercygate]

That may be true, except there are other areas of the Bible (like the one I quoted before), that stated the word became flesh, implying that God’s Word or the Bible is the flesh being referred to.

God’s Word, in Catholic teaching, is not limited to the Bible. The Bible is the inspired and inerrant WRITTEN Word of God. The Word, as others have noted, is Christ Himself and Sacred Tradition constitutes part of the Word of God as lived out in His Body – the Church.

 

[mercygate]

What part of “It is finished” can’t you understand?

Yes, but not through a re-sacrifice.

Who are you to take: “It is finished” and then say it’s not.

the word is actually not “finished” The word is “tetelestai” – paid in full. The application of the payment must be made to each individual Christian as time goes on. Otherwise, there would have been no need for the disciples to go out and “teach all nations.” If everything were “finished” we would not need to preach the Gospel.

 

[mercygate]

No need for name calling now, scripture says exactly what it says, and it says that incense is an abomination, bottom line.

aj, I know you feel like you are being swamped by a swarm of hornets, but you really are posing objections that are absolutely NOT objections. Are you thinking this stuff up by yourself, or are you being fed?

Bottom line on incense? If it is an “abomination” God sure has a funny idea of how He should be worshiped in Heaven:

Rev 5:8 . . . the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints

Rev 8: 3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of theincense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.