The Eucharist is NOT the body of Christ

[jmcrae]

God doesn’t need an “interceder” just the same as he doesn’t need a mediator. God has plenty of ability in Himself to forgive our sins and listen to our confessions for us. He doesn’t need a sinful man to do it for Him.

What God needs or doesn’t need isn’t really the point. It is God who gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) and it is God who commands us to make use of it.

It is not up to us to tell God that He doesn’t actually need for us to do that. Rather, it is up to us to be obedient to God, and to do things His way, rather than whatever way we happen to think might be an “improvement” on His way.

 

[Dauphin]

So then the priest is a God basically then, or is in His form?

No.

A priest is an ordained minister of God. When he acts, God acts through him.

A priest is certainly not God in flesh. He simply acts in Christ’s person, so that the action is actually accomplished by Christ.

 

[Dauphin]

He wouldn’t need to, and again as I keep saying why would he institute it when it goes completely against the idea that Jesus is the only mediator?

It doesn’t go against the idea of only Jesus as mediator.

Now, answer my question: since we all know that God can forgive sins without the priest, why does he have the priest do it anyway? Can you think of any benefit here?

 

[Dauphin]

Again I ask you why would he contradict what God already said before, that Jesus was the only mediator?

There is not contradiction. Jesus forgives the sins.

I am presenting you with said evidence now.

?

 

[jmcrae]

He wouldn’t need to,

And yet, He did.

and again as I keep saying why would he institute it when it goes completely against the idea that Jesus is the only mediator?

The priest in the confessional doesn’t actually die for your sins - he just hears your Confession and gives you the Absolution on Christ’s behalf.

You are right that Jesus alone is the mediator - that’s why Jesus alone died for our sins. Nobody else is dying for our sins, or even claiming to do so.

Praying with someone, or for someone, is not “mediating;” it is “interceding,” and we are all called, each in our own way, to intercede for others with our prayers and actions. (It would be a sin not to do so.)

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Gospel According to Saint John 20: 21- 23
He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

“Whose sins”… See here the commission, stamped by the broad seal of heaven, by virtue of which the pastors of Christ’s church absolve repenting sinners upon their confession.

From The Physician of the Soul

n the confessional Christ is the physician of the soul. When absolution is given by the priest it is confirmed by God. The priest is the delegate of God—the wire, as it were, between the penitent and God. Confession is a wonderful comfort to the sinner. Many persons go from bad to worse because they have started on the wrong path. Confession gives a new start and a new heart. Confession, however, is not only for those who are in serious sin but for everyone who tries to advance to holiness. Confession is a preventive as well as a remission of sin. It is not only a preventive but also a means of sanctification, since it confers a special sanctifying grace. Some very holy persons go to confession daily, for, as was said previously, confession, although necessary for mortal sin only, is advisable for all those who aim at a holier life…
It will help us to understand this power of delegated authority if we consider that something similar occurs daily in modern affairs. There is in law what is known as the “power of attorney.” If a man of great wealth becomes ill or goes abroad, he designates a person to represent him financially. This person so delegated might not have any money of his own. If he went to a bank and in his own name presented a demand for a thousand dollars, he would be ejected or arrested. But if he has the power of attorney, he could present a demand for a million dollars and it would be honored. This great power is conferred merely by a word or a line, legally attested.

Christ gave the power of attorney to his Church with regard to the forgiveness of sins, saying: “Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them.” We know, accordingly, on divine authority, that when the priest in the confessional pronounces forgiveness it is ratified in heaven. On leaving the confessional the penitent has the same certainty of forgiveness as if Christ himself in person said to him: “Thy sins are forgiven thee.”

It is sometimes objected to confession that there is no need of going to confession to a priest, since one may go directly to God for forgiveness. To this it is answered that God has already replied to that objection by the very fact that he instituted the sacrament of penance. Christ would not have established confession if it were not his will to dispense pardon in that way. If a monarch decrees that his subjects should transact affairs with him through designated officials, that would be the ordinary way of conducting such affairs.

Confession is the ordinary way that God has decreed for obtaining pardon for transgressions against him. We say “the ordinary way” because under extraordinary circumstances the sinner may go directly to God for pardon. In cases of fire, shipwreck, or sudden accident, when confession is not possible, a person by making an act of perfect contrition for his sins will be forgiven directly by God, but if he survives the danger, he must afterwards go to confession, because the act of contrition made in time of danger implied doing God’s will when possible, and once the danger is over, confession is possible. A person who falls into serious sin should make an act of perfect contrition at once, as this, with the intention of confessing later, remits the sin.

 

[ajk19]

It doesn’t go against the idea of only Jesus as mediator.

Explain just how not.

Now, answer my question: since we all know that God can forgive sins without the priest, why does he have the priest do it anyway? Can you think of any benefit here?

No, but I bet you’re going to tell me aren’t you?

 

[ajk19]

There is not contradiction. Jesus forgives the sins.

Why would He have to do that under the guise of a mere mortal though? It’s absurd.

?

The evidence has been in my reasons, for which I have already stated.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

From How to Talk About Confession

The biblical argument is an important one. In fact, if it isn’t raised by our opponents, it ought to be raised by us. We need to refer to Christ’s words to his apostles (John 20:2l–22), “Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven,” and the significance of his having breathed upon them as he spoke. How can the apostles announce that some sins are to be forgiven and some “retained” if they do not know what people’s sins are? How would forgiveness work if no sins were mentioned? The problem for the sincere Bible-believing Evangelical is that there is no biblical mandate for his custom of the altar call, in which people are urged to come forward to a given place, nor is there warrant for the notion of a spontaneous testimony while sitting in a circle at a prayer group—yet these are the methods of announcing forgiveness often used by Evangelical churches.

The Catholic Church takes the biblical teaching that the apostle is one who is “sent out” by God and through whom God speaks (2 Cor. 5:20) with the message, “Be reconciled to God.” The words that are used by the Church in absolution are centered in Scripture, which speaks of Christ “reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor. 5:18). In the epistle of James we are told “confess your faults to one another” (Jas. 5:16), and in context this refers to confession to the clergy (who also have the authority to anoint sick people with oil in the name of the Lord). There are arguments, then, for saying that the sacrament of reconciliation as practiced in the Catholic Church is biblical. If we wanted to press the point, we could go further and note that the sinner’s prayer printed on cards distributed at Evangelical rallies is not biblical at all, at least in the sense that it is not to be found in Scripture in the words used and that all the biblical evidence points the Catholic way.

Read the ENTIRE article. NOW.

 

[jmcrae]

Why would He have to do that under the guise of a mere mortal though? It’s absurd.

Not at all. It’s an extension of the Incarnation. By granting His authority to the priests of His Church, Christ continues the ministry of reconciliation that He began during the three years of His earthly ministry in Galilee, and spreads it to the entire world, and for all time.

The evidence has been in my reasons, for which I have already stated.

So, you consider your personal opinions to be “evidence”?

 

[PatienceAndLove]

From Confession

Are all of our sins-past, present, and future-forgiven once and for all when we become Christians? Not according to the Bible or the Church Fathers. Scripture nowhere states that our future sins are forgiven; instead, it teaches us to pray, “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt. 6:12).

The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is the sacrament known as confession, penance, or reconciliation. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9). This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of Man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power “glorified God, who had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8; note the plural men). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21-23).

Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins-but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it.

Over time, the forms in which the sacrament has been administered have changed. In the early Church, publicly known sins (such as apostasy) were often confessed openly in church, though private confession to a priest was always an option for privately committed sins. Still, confession was not just something done in silence to God alone, but something done “in church,” as the Didache (A.D. 70) indicates.

But the basics of the sacrament have always been there, as the following quotations reveal. Of special significance is their recognition that confession and absolution must be received by a sinner before receiving Holy Communion, for “whoever . . . eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor. 11:27).

The rest of the article quotes Church Fathers and the Didache regarding Confession.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

AJK-
Do you read any of the articles people have provided to you?

 

[Dauphin]

Explain just how not.

The priest does not die for our sins. He carries out a commission given to him by Christ.

No, but I bet you’re going to tell me aren’t you?

Confession is a difficult thing. I find it alot harder to confess to a priest than to confess to God alone. When I enter the confessional, I’m alot more nervous and conscious of my sins than I would be if I were just kneeling down to pray for forgiveness. In reality, I should be infinitely more afraid of the wrath of God for the sins I have committed, than of the judgment of one priest.

Christ knew our human limitations. He knew that we find it easy to take God’s forgiveness for granted. When He instituted confession, it was designed to give us a more appropriate sense of repentance - to make it easier for us to feel true remorse.

Confession also forces us to seriously examine our consciences, and to clearly spell out our faults. Without confession, we would be much less likely to do so.

Christ did a very wise thing when he instituted the Sacrament of Confession.

 

[Dauphin]

Why would He have to do that under the guise of a mere mortal though? It’s absurd.

Christ never did anything absurd. He had excellent reasons for instituting confession.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Confession is a difficult thing. I find it alot harder to confess to a priest than to confess to God alone. When I enter the confessional, I’m alot more nervous and conscious of my sins than I would be if I were just kneeling down to pray for forgiveness. In reality, I should be infinitely more afraid of the wrath of God for the sins I have committed, than of the judgment of one priest.

Christ knew our human limitations. He knew that we find it easy to take God’s forgiveness for granted. When He instituted confession, it was designed to give us a more appropriate sense of repentance - to make it easier for us to feel true remorse.

Confession also forces us to seriously examine our consciences, and to clearly spell out our faults. Without confession, we would be much less likely to do so.

Christ did a very wise thing when he instituted the Sacrament of Confession.

Does this help you?

**So we should explain that the core of confession is admitting to God, and to his representative, the sins we have committed and seeking God’s forgiveness. We then receive an absolute assurance of this forgiveness in absolution. **At this stage it is useful to show from a prayer book the short liturgy that is used. People have heard of it, with its “Bless me, Father” ritual (if only from all those confessional jokes), and it is not wholly unfamiliar. We need to show that confession is an act of worship in the life of the Church and that it has an order of service just like any other. Evangelicals will admit that their traditions have rituals too, often written down: the “hymn sandwich” service interspersed with testimonies, the form for weddings and funerals, and so on. These leave a certain amount of room for what is personal. Curiously, our ritual for confession is probably the nearest thing we have to the Evangelical form of worship that is part ritual, part spontaneous personal declaration.

So do Catholics “just go and tell a priest and then go and sin again?”** Once we have explained what it means to confess something to God and to one of his representatives, it seems a bit less likely that we would feel comfortable about going off and happily committing the sin again. **On the contrary, the almost invariable feeling immediately after confession, and usually for some while beyond, is a sense of certainly not wanting to offend God again. Only later, when we get slack and forgetful, do things begin to go wrong.

 

[porthos11]

Why would He have to do that under the guise of a mere mortal though? It’s absurd.

First of all, why do you ignore the clear Scripture we gave you proving that Christ COMMANDED his apostles to forgive sins?

Second, how much more absurd is it than God healing people using handkerchiefs or even Peter’s shadow?

The evidence has been in my reasons, for which I have already stated.

No, you presented no evidence. You presented only your opinion, was soundly refuted with Scripture, which you then clearly ignore and maintain your position with no support.

I challenge you. Explain John 20:22-23. Someone already tried to twist it violently with no support whatsoever. How about you? Why do you ignore the Bible?

 

[porthos11]

Again I ask you why would he contradict what God already said before, that Jesus was the only mediator?

The priest is not a mediator. He is an instrument, empowered by Jesus.

I am presenting you with said evidence now.

No you’re not. You’re engaging in a p*ssing contest by ignoring the clear sense of John 20:22-23 and tossing other texts without addressing what we gave you.

 

[HailMary]

If he did, then he is contradicting himself and His word, and that is not possible.

Or your protestant, individualistic, anti-covenantal ways have lead you to the wrong interpretation. Thank you Sola Scriptura!

 

[valient_Lucy]

It comes from God and those who knew Him best.

First of all, the Bible was compiled by people. There are many epistles and gospels that are not apart of the Bible, such as the Gospel of Judas, or the Gospel of Thomas. When I first heard of the Gospel of Thomas, I asked my mom if they were going to add The Gospel of Thomas into the Bible, and she said, “no, people decided a long time ago what books belonged in the Bible and what books did not.” ajk19, who were these people? When did this happen? What did they believe, and more importantly, why should you trust them?

Second of all, no original copy of the Gospel of Matthew, epistle of Paul, or any other book of the Bible, exist today. We have copies of , and most of these copies were produced by people who believed that the bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ, who confessed their sins to priests, and asked Mary to intercede for them. How can you trust the Bible that they preserved?

 

[valient_Lucy]

God doesn’t need an “interceder” just the same as he doesn’t need a mediator. God has plenty of ability in Himself to forgive our sins and listen to our confessions for us. He doesn’t need a sinful man to do it for Him.

Why did Christ tell the Apostles to go to the ends of the earth and proclaim the good news? Why didn’t He just stay on earth forever after His resurrection and do it Himself? He could have preached the good news much better than the Apostles. He didn’t need the Apostles or any other sinful man to preach for Him.