The Eucharist is NOT the body of Christ

[PatienceAndLove]

Which ones? Can you show me in context that this is what is being said?

Gospel According to Saint Matthew 26: 26-28
And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: **Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins. **

Gospel According to Saint Mark 14: 22-24
And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: **This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many. **

Gospel According to Saint Luke 22: 19-20
And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. n like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying:** This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood**, which shall be shed for you.

First Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians 11: 23-25
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

Gospel According to Saint John 6: 35, 48-58
And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so** he that eateth me**, the same also shall live by me.

I think the connections are pretty clear.

 

[porthos11]

Which ones? Can you show me in context that this is what is being said?

Oh please. Go back through the thread. You’ve been shown the passages, complete with their linguistic, historical, and cultural contexts that support, not disprove the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, especially John 6, where several posters have already shown you why a metaphorical interpretation is linguistically untenable and puts nonsense into Jesus’ mouth.

You have already been directed to the Last Supper accounts and the accompanying warnings Paul wrote against unworthy reception. You have been shown the parallels between John 6 and the Last Supper accounts.

But you have not addressed any of them, only drawn up arbitrary criteria to keep your blinds down.

As far as we are concerned it’s simple: Jesus said it. Therefore it is.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Oh please. **Go back through the thread. **You’ve been shown the passages, complete with their linguistic, historical, and cultural contexts that support, not disprove the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, especially John 6, where several posters have already shown you why a metaphorical interpretation is linguistically untenable and puts nonsense into Jesus’ mouth.

You have already been directed to the Last Supper accounts and the accompanying warnings Paul wrote against unworthy reception. You have been shown the parallels between John 6 and the Last Supper accounts.

But you have not addressed any of them, only drawn up arbitrary criteria to keep your blinds down.

As far as we are concerned it’s simple: Jesus said it. Therefore it is.

I just reposted it, resplendent in it’s red boldness!

 

[valient_Lucy]

We bring judgement on ourselves when we hold onto sin and do not acknowledge what Christ has done for us.

The passage in Corinthians refers specifically to eating the bread and drinking the cup unworthily as “being guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord.” We do bring judgment on ourselves when we hold onto sin and not acknowledge what Christ has done in our lives, as you say. But, if the Eucharist is simply a symbol, why does Paul say that eating and drinking the bread and wine for communion unworthily is any worse than eating or drinking any other bread or wine? What is it about the specific act of communion that brings about judgment if done unworthily?

 

[justasking4]

valient Lucy;3103097]If Jesus truly was God Incarnate, how do we know this since he had a physical body exactly the same as any other man? Why was there no change in the body? Yes, he did miracles, but many other prophets did miracles just as astounding (or more astounding) than Jesus’ miracles. Jesus was also not the only human to rise from the dead. Plenty of other people rose from the dead, including Lazarus. The only evidence that we have that Jesus is God is that He claimed to be God. But he’s not the only person in history that has ever claimed to be God. Even today, with the New Age movement, plenty of people are discovering their own divinity. So, why should I believe that Jesus is God, without any physical evidence?

You believe all kinds of things without any “physical evidence”. You should believe Jesus is God because that is exactly what the NT teaches. Jesus did only what God do.

Also, why should I believe that a person who has “accepted Christ as his personal Savior” is any different than a person who hasn’t? Where is the evidence for them being “born again?”

There are a number of characteristics you should look for. A quick list would be:
1- a desire to serve Christ
2- a greater sensititivty to sin and a desire to stop
3- a desire for the Scriptures to know Christ
4- fellowship
5- a thankful attitude for all that God has done.
These are just some of things to look for.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

There are a number of characteristics you should look for. A quick list would be:
1- a desire to serve Christ
2- a greater sensititivty [sic] to sin and a desire to stop
3- a desire for the Scriptures to know Christ
4- fellowship
5- a thankful attitude for all that God has done.
These are just some of things to look for.

ooooooooo- we should look for other Catholics? Ok!

 

[justasking4]

The passage in Corinthians refers specifically to eating the bread and drinking the cup unworthily as “being guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord.” We do bring judgment on ourselves when we hold onto sin and not acknowledge what Christ has done in our lives, as you say. But, if the Eucharist is simply a symbol, why does Paul say that eating and drinking the bread and wine for communion unworthily is any worse than eating or drinking any other bread or wine? What is it about the specific act of communion that brings about judgment if done unworthily?

Good questions. I think it has to do with our focus at the time. Taking communion is not like eating a hamburger but a time of deep reflection on what Christ has done for us and not to take lightly what He did for us.

 

[porthos11]

**You believe all kinds of things without any “physical evidence”. **You should believe Jesus is God because that is exactly what the NT teaches. Jesus did only what God do.

Yes. Because we follow the simple Biblical principle of 2 Corinthians 5:7. **We walk by faith, not by sight.
**
I do not need physical evidence. The Words of God himself are sufficient for me.

There are a number of characteristics you should look for. A quick list would be:
1- a desire to serve Christ
2- a greater sensititivty to sin and a desire to stop
3- a desire for the Scriptures to know Christ
4- fellowship
5- a thankful attitude for all that God has done.
These are just some of things to look for.

And I know very many Catholics who have all this, par excellence.

Nevertheless, these again are arbitrary criteria coming straight from your own head. No matter how inspiring they may be, they are just your own, which means you are claiming authority for yourself.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Why does JA4 consistently ignore me? I am just not special enough? :crying:

 

[valient_Lucy]

You believe all kinds of things without any “physical evidence”. You should believe Jesus is God because that is exactly what the NT teaches. Jesus did only what God do.

So it’s OK to believe that Jesus is God without demanding any physical evidence, but it’s not OK to believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ without demanding physical evidence?

 

[porthos11]

Why does JA4 consistently ignore me? I am just not special enough? :crying:

Consider it testament to how excellent you are.

 

[zerocrossing]

Is it not true that some church fathers held to uncatholic beliefs?

You know a Father of the Church who debunks the Eucharist? Sorry, can’t be found.

Is it not also true that just because some may have believed for a long time does not make it true?

Long time is not the operative term here. Universally accepted from the earliest days of the Church is the operative term.

The problem is the way the catholic church interprets these scriptures to support its doctrines.

Wrong. The problem is the way some Protestants attempt to RE-interpret these scriptures to support THEIR doctrines. Your RE-interpretation is not even remotely supported by scripture, and it originates in nothing more than a feeble attempt to debunk the obvious and stated meaning the scripture simply because the obvious and stated meaning conforms to what Catholics believe… and have always believed since the day of Pentecost. If Catholics believe it, it’s got to be wrong. Your RE-interpretation (your “careful” rationalistic de-miraculized “exegesis”) amounts to nothing more than this.

A careful exergesis of the passages just don’t support the catholic position.

A careful exegesis absolutely supports what the Church holds.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Good questions. I think it has to do with our focus at the time. Taking communion is not like eating a hamburger but a time of deep reflection on what Christ has done for us and not to take lightly what He did for us.

So what makes communion any different than any other time of deep reflection and prayer? Why does Paul never warn us that praying unworthily would make us guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord? Or listening to the Scriptures being read in Church? Why does he specifically give this warning to communion, and only communion?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Why does JA4 consistently ignore me? I am just not special enough? :crying:

There, there - you’re o.k. in my book. :hug3:

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Which ones? Can you show me in context that this is what is being said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove
Gospel According to Saint Matthew 26: 26-28
And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Gospel According to Saint Mark 14: 22-24
And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.

Gospel According to Saint Luke 22: 19-20
And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. n like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

First Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians 11: 23-25
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

Gospel According to Saint John 6: 35, 48-58
And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

I think the connections are pretty clear.

When Jesus spoke these words did the wine actually turn into His blood?

Did the bread literally turn into His body as He sat there?

Did the apostles understand that the Jesus they knew in the flesh was now also to be known as a piece of bread and wine to?

The answer to these questions will prove which interpretation is correct.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Why does JA4 consistently ignore me? I am just not special enough? :crying:

Don’t worry Patience and Love, I think you’re special.

 

[zerocrossing]

Why does JA4 consistently ignore me? I am just not special enough? :crying:

Maybe I can send JA4 your way. I’m going to lie down now. I’m ill (severe sinus infection). And I’d like to get well before Christmas.

So JA4, maybe you can answer some of PatienceAndLove’s posts now.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Is it not true that some church fathers held to uncatholic beliefs?
Is it not also true that just because some may have believed for a long time does not make it true?

Yes, individuals Fathers were in error on certain things. The keyword is individual. We look at the unanimous consent of the Fathers. And they teach that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus - truly!

The problem is the way the catholic church interprets these scriptures to support its doctrines. A careful exergesis of the passages just don’t support the catholic position.

Ha! As our limited exegesis in this thread has shown, it only supports the Catholic position.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

When Jesus spoke these words did the wine actually turn into His blood?

Did the bread literally turn into His body as He sat there?

Did the apostles understand that the Jesus they knew in the flesh was now also to be known as a piece of bread and wine to?

The answer to these questions will prove which interpretation is correct.

1. I wasn’t there, I have no personal account about what happened
2. Jesus = God, therefore, if He wanted the wine to become His Blood right then and there, it would.

3)Gospel According to Saint John 21: 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

1. Obviously the Apostles understood it all, or they would have walked away like the rest of the disciples did. You underestimate the faith of the Apostles.

Additionally, St. Paul was not even one of the original 12. Yet- he holds to the Real Presence. Blessed are those who did not see and still believe.
First Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians 11: 1-2 Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you

First Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians 11: 23- 29 (again!)
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the** body and of the blood of the Lord**. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

As I said before, Paul was never at the Last Supper. Yet- here we see him telling the Corinthians that Jesus told him to tell the followers of the Way to eat and drink His Body and His Blood. What can be more plain than that?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

When Jesus spoke these words did the wine actually turn into His blood?

At the Last Supper - yes.

Did the bread literally turn into His body as He sat there?

At the Last Supper - yes.

Did the apostles understand that the Jesus they knew in the flesh was now also to be known as a piece of bread and wine to?

I don’t know. But, there are many things that they didn’t understand until after the Resurrection and Pentecost, even as they were happening.

The answer to these questions will prove which interpretation is correct.

How?