The Eucharist is NOT the body of Christ

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tm30;3106433]Demons can appear and disappear and walk through walls - that’s not necessarily the power of resurrected body. The proof of Jesus’ resurrection was in the fact that His body was marked by the wounds of the nails and the lance. By all appearances, His body was still grossly deformed by loss of tissue. Those are certainly not the hallmarks of a body in perfection, but substantively, it was. The fact that they could see and touch His body seems to indicate a material quality to it, but Scripture tells us that His body had been glorified. Why?
Do you have the verse where it mentions that His body was glorified? i can’t think right now where that is.
You believe in a God that is equally alien to the senses of touch, taste, smell, site, hearing. How do you manage that?
Are you speaking of the very essence of God here?
Where’s the evidence that God created the world? We believe because the words of Scripture indicate that by the power of the spoken Word, it came to be.
I agree. However we can go further and study nature and see that the best explaniation for it is Him.
If the Word, speaking in the flesh, didn’t really change bread and wine into His body and blood, there’s even less evidence that He created the world.
Not necessarily so. Our issue is how to understand what He meant by it. I have a serious problem when someone claims something has happened pyhiscally to the bread and wine but your senses can’t see it. Thats like a protestant faith healer who claims to have healed someone of some affliction but refuses to present the evidence for it. In both cases i have no grounds to believe it.
 
And why was this cahrge against the church false? Was it based on a literal understanding or a figuative?
The answer to this is in the erroneous limiting the “flesh” of Jesus into a human form. Jesus is God, His flesh can be anything He says it is. God has manifest Himself as a burning bush, a pillar of flame, a pillar of smoke, a dove, a lamb, a human, and on and on. There is no restriction to His flesh being human flesh even though He is in human form. Is it easier for you to believe God took the physical form of a bush? Would you prefer He gave us a tree to eat? Or perhaps a dove, they’re pretty tasty. Are you saying God “can’t” present Himself as a consecrated host? He truly can be a consecrated host, and still be His real flesh. He’s God! The consecrated host becomes the physical flesh of Jesus, the “accidents” which remain are the form of the bread and wine.
 
revelations;3108388]BECAUSE the Eucharist is the greatest mystery of all time!
Of course there is some mystery to it. However when a claim is made by the church that something has happened and there is no evidence for it then you have no grounds to truly beleive it.
You can’t hack God down to your level of understanding to be able to believe in it. Yes it does taste LIKE bread, yes it does look LIKE bread, but it ISNT bread. I don’t get how hard this is to understand. Perhaps reflect on why it is called a host…
Your right its not hard to understand. If some used the kind of reasoning here in other areas of your life you would not accept it.
Are they cherry blasters you get out of the vending machine actual cherries? NO! But they look like cherries? They taste like cherries? But they’re not cherries.
I agree. However when i go to the store to buy cheeries i expect them to be cheeries.
The church is charged with trying to explain this mystery. For 2000 years the best they could do is by saying that the substance of the bread much be changed somehow.
I agree and there are reasons for it and things follow from it.
Protestants just did away with the whole thing.
And for good reason.
The JW’s say that Jesus isn’t even God! When you stray away from the Magisterium and start interpreting scripture yourself things start to get crazy.
This can be applied to the catholic church. Relying on men to guide you instead of holding them to the scriptures leads to all kinds of crazy ideas.
The Eucharist itself is biblical, perhaps the philosphy is not. But the theology of it is solid.
What do you mean the philosphy is not?
 
This is where the church has accepted unbiblical concepts into its theology by grounding its beliefs on Aristotelian philosophy.
The belief is grounded in the words of Christ.

If He says “This IS My Body” and the Eucharist doesn’t change in appearance, we know that something must have changed, even if we don’t see it. We know it because Christ has told us; that’s all we need.

Transubstantiation is the only explanation that treats the words of Christ as if they’re true and makes sense of them for us. The grounding for it is entirely scriptural, and denial of it amounts to a denial of scripture’s inerrancy.
 
Of course there is some mystery to it. However when a claim is made by the church that something has happened and there is no evidence for it then you have no grounds to truly beleive it.
This sounds like something an atheist would say. What “evidence” do you have that Christ has risen, other than the witness of the Church? The Eucharist is a matter of faith, just as the incarnation and the resurrection are matters of faith. This is precisely what Christ meant when He said “The flesh profiteth nothing”; you can’t rely on your senses or on science alone to discern the truth.
This can be applied to the catholic church. Relying on men to guide you instead of holding them to the scriptures leads to all kinds of crazy ideas.
It is the Holy Spirit who guides us, through the institution that Christ established. The Church is protected from error, meaning its followers will be protected from “crazy ideas” if they just pay attention. The Church is already held to scripture, because it produced scripture. It forms part of the deposit of faith, and nothing the Church believes can contradict it.
 
Hello,

This answer from this site is probably better than I could respond at the moment.

Did Pope Gelasius deny the doctrine of transubstantiation?

Here is the relevant passage often foisted by critics of the Catholic faith:

“Sacred Scripture, testifying that this Mystery[ie. The Incarnation] began at the start of the blessed Conception, says; ‘Wisdom has built a house for itself’(Prov 9:1), rooted in the solidity of the sevenfold Spirit. This Wisdom ministers to us the food of the Incarnation of Christ through which we are made sharers of the divine nature. Certainly the sacraments of the Body and Blood of Christ that we receive are a divine reality, because of which and through which we ‘are made sharers of the divine nature’(1 Pt 1:4). Nevertheless the substance or nature of bread and wine does not cease to exist. And certainly the image and likeness of the Body and Blood of Christ are celebrated in the carrying out the Mysteries.”
Pope Gelasius I[regn A.D. 492-496],Tract on the two natures against Eutchyes & Nestorius.

First, Pope Gelasius categorically affirms the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This is denied by White. Second, Pope Gelasius was concerned in defending the nature of Christ not the Eucharist. So he was not so concerned in giving his understanding of the Eucharist as he was in explaining the mystery of the Incarnation. Remember, the Church was concerned with various Christological heresies at this time which denied the two natures, the two wills, and the one [divine]personhood of Christ. At this point in time, the mystery of the Eucharist had not so developed in the mind of the Church to force upon the mind of Pope Gelasius an expression of the Eucharist in the terms of transubstantiation. The Church had to develop a theological language to express the mind of the Church on various matters of faith. The Church was just beginning to express its thoughts to describe the change of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. There was no question regarding a Real Presence in the Eucharist; however, it is another matter regarding the type of change(consubstantiation, transubstantiation etc.). At best, Pope Gelasius was simply saying that the appearance[accidents] of bread/wine remain alongside the Real Presence in an attempt to explain the mystery of the Incarnation, since Christ humanity remains alongside His divinity. Some scholars interpret the above passage to refer to the accidents of the bread and wine. Even this analogy has some holes in it. At worst, Pope Gelasius was simply incorrect in his Eucharistic theology. I tend to believe the Pope was somewhere in the middle. That is, Pope Gelasius was not so concerned with explaining the doctrine of the Eucharist, but wanted to explain the Incarnation via an analogy. As with most analogies, they are imperfect. In addition, his theological vocabulary did not allow him to express the mystery of the Eucharist with any more precision.

Therefore, do not base your understanding of the Eucharist during this time on one single passage from Pope Gelasius. Instead cull the passages from contemporaries of Pope Gelasius which speak directly on the Eucharist. Here you will find a clear and broad witness on behalf of Transubstantiation.

For more info see:

James T. O’Connor’s “The Hidden Manna” pgs 71-73
Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” p. 382

You wonder why critics of the Faith don’t downplay the divinity of Christ by citing Fathers prior to Nicea that seemingly subordinate the nature of Christ. Prior to definition, the Fathers are developing a theological vocabulary as they reflect on the mystery of the Incarnation, so it is no surprise to see some Fathers prior to Nicea seemingly downplay the divinity of Christ. This is the nature of development. Prior to definition, the Fathers are all over the theological landscape as they attempt to explain a divine mystery, and as time goes on the mystery becomes a little more clearer and more defined.
Wowser! You make me feel so SMART! The observation that Gelasius was debating the hypostatic union, not the Eucharist, and that the theological language used since the 13th century had not yet been systematized was what I said (with less detail) up-thread when JA4 first poste this quote. Gives me confidence that the old bean is still functioning.
 
Hebrews 6:18
I’m not sure that this passage says God cannot lie. It says that he could not lie because of his immutable purpose and immutable oath (to Himself). Does this not imply, technically, that the impossibility of God lying here is specific and circumstantial, not general?

But if you want to proof text, this side discussion grew out of your claim that God can do almost anything–what about Matt. 19:26?
 
Hebrews 6:18
God’s very nature is that he cannot lie. He is the Truth, or more specifically, He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is same yesterday, today, and forever. He is not capable of lying. We can be unfaithful, but he remains faithful even if we are disobedient.

So when Jesus Christ said that He is the Bread of Life. The Gospel makes this very clear.

Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 **Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. **

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man** eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world**. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

56** For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed**. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. (John 6:47-59).

Jesus is indeed the Manna that came down from heaven. The mere fact the Jesus was born in Bethelem, which is Hebrew for “House of Bread” makes this into light.

So where are we getting at? Jesus is Truly Present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist.

If you deny this, you can** making a liar out of God **because you do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is "is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed"
You are right, God is not capable of lying. Therefore, when Jesus said we are to eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood, we should obey him.
 
I find it amazing that catholics believe that something has happened to the bread and wine even though there is no evidence for it.
On the contrary, the evidence is experienced by the person himself who is touched by Christ through the Eucharist. It is a personal experience. “And it came to pass when he reclined at table with them, that he took the bread and blessed, and broke and began handing it to them. And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him; and he vanished from their sight.” (Luke 24:30-31)
Through the Eucharist, they recognized Him.
 
God’s very nature is that he cannot lie. He is the Truth, or more specifically, He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is same yesterday, today, and forever. He is not capable of lying. We can be unfaithful, but he remains faithful even if we are disobedient.

So when Jesus Christ said that He is the Bread of Life. The Gospel makes this very clear.

Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 **Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. **

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man** eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world**. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

56** For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed**. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. (John 6:47-59).

Jesus is indeed the Manna that came down from heaven. The mere fact the Jesus was born in Bethelem, which is Hebrew for “House of Bread” makes this into light.

So where are we getting at? Jesus is Truly Present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist.

If you deny this, you can** making a liar out of God **because you do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is "is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed"
You are right, God is not capable of lying. Therefore, when Jesus said we are to eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood, we should obey him.
The issue you bring up is understanding what Jesus meant. No doubt through history there has been great discussions on this issue. It continues today.
 
I’m not sure that this passage says God cannot lie. It says that he could not lie because of his immutable purpose and immutable oath (to Himself). Does this not imply, technically, that the impossibility of God lying here is specific and circumstantial, not general?

But if you want to proof text, this side discussion grew out of your claim that God can do almost anything–what about Matt. 19:26?
We would have to qualify this verse otherwise it would lead to all kinds of absurdies.
 
Hebrews 6:18
You beat me to it. Not to quibble, but the Greek is a little nuanced here. It’s in the passive, meaning “be shown false” referring to the “two immutable things” by which He swore His oath to Abraham, in which He could not be shown false.
 
On the contrary, the evidence is experienced by the person himself who is touched by Christ through the Eucharist. It is a personal experience. “And it came to pass when he reclined at table with them, that he took the bread and blessed, and broke and began handing it to them. And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him; and he vanished from their sight.” (Luke 24:30-31)
Through the Eucharist, they recognized Him.
I don’t get the impression in Luke 24 that this is some kind of religious service but a common meal. The way He prayed and broke the bread must have been clues to them that this was the risen Christ.
 
Originally Posted by agangbern View Post
Where is it written in the bible that God cannot lie? God does not lie. Yes, He does not lie. But not the word “cannot”.

Hebrews 6:18
Oh, it was about the promise that God made to Abraham, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.” (Hebrew 5:11)
Of course God will not lie, He always fulfills His promise. But this does not mean “He cannot”. It simply means “He would not”. “For nothing is impossible with God” (Luke 1:37)
 
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