The Eucharist is NOT the body of Christ

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justasking4 said:
I find it amazing that catholics believe that something has happened to the bread and wine even though there is no evidence for it. I suspect most would not accept such reasons in other areas of life. However the catholic church as an institution is a powerful influence in many catholics life and to question it (even if you disagree) is to question God Himself.
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Please show me the physical evidence of the Resurrection - or the Ascension - or Pentecost - or any number of other things.
justasking4 said:
This is where the church has accepted unbiblical concepts into its theology by grounding its beliefs on Aristotelian philosophy.
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:rolleyes:
We don’t derive doctrine from Aristotle, but it is a way to describe and communicate true doctrine.

And do you think that your Protestant reformers did any different. If memory serves, they base their philosophy on neo-platonism. The system used doesn’t make their doctrine false (indeed, Saint Augustine used this system - which is where they most likely got it from, i.e., Calvin, etc.). Their doctrine is false no matter what system of philosophy and terminology they used to describe it.
 
justasking4 said:
I don’t get the impression in Luke 24 that this is some kind of religious service but a common meal. The way He prayed and broke the bread must have been clues to them that this was the risen Christ.
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Is breaking of bread as performed by Christ done in common meal? If yes, then it is a common meal. But if it is common, then why did it become a clue and made them recognize Christ through it?
 
Hello,
justasking4 said:
Christ is fully trustworthy men are not.
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Then when He says This IS my Body and This IS my Blood, do you not believe Him? What evidence, other than your own logic, do you have that Jesus really meant This symbolizes my Body and This symbolizes my Blood?
 
justasking4 said:
I don’t get the impression in Luke 24 that this is some kind of religious service but a common meal. The way He prayed and broke the bread must have been clues to them that this was the risen Christ.
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Even as a Protestant I never encountered such a reading of this passage. As a Catholic, I read it even more intensely than I did as a Protestant – when I STILL understood this to be a reference to the Lord’s Supper.

(30) he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. (31) And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight. . . .(35) they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread. (36) As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them.

The Early Church (even in the NT) referred to the Christian gathering as “the breaking of the bread.”

In Luke 24 HE gives the bread to them. THEN they recognize him. As with His hidden presence in the Eucharist, He "vanished out of their sight. He was KNOWN to them in the breaking of the bread. When they re-tell the story of the breaking of the bread, Jesus Himself comes among them.

WOW.

For me it’s just overwhelming.
 
justasking4 said:
The issue you bring up is understanding what Jesus meant. No doubt through history there has been great discussions on this issue. It continues today.
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The Church which he established affirms Real Presence. Not just us Catholics but also in Eastern Orthodox Church. This has remain consistence.

The mere idea that Eucharistic is merely symbolic is new concept. It was not believed by the Early Christians. The idea of symbolicism did not came about until the Reformation. I would also think that is complete insult to God to deny his Presence amongst us. I take the Word of God at heart than someone who believe a Protestant belief of symbolicism of Holy Communion as false.

It is also an insult for the Early Christians who also believe in the Real Presence in the Bread and Wine. These Christians died and became martyred of our faith.

Why do you believe in foreign or alien belief that Jesus isn’t not the Body and Blood of the Lord? Who told you it is symbolic? Whose authority do you following?

I also like to add 1 Corinthians 11:26-30

26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But** let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the cup**. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many of you have died.

If this was just symbolic, then defiling the Body and Blood of the Lord would not make sense. If this was just ordinary bread and wine, we should not examine ourselves. But Paul said, we ought to examine ourselves first before receiving the Body and Blood of the Lord.

You wouldn’t examine yourself if it was just regular bread. ((continue))
 
The Early Church Fathers believe this to be true. This is consistent with Scripture. If it were just symbolic, it means the deposit of faith changed. As we know the Deposit of faith is unchanging especially on faith and morals. Since the Eucharist is indeed a part of our faith, we ought to believe that Jesus is present.

Anyways, Ignatius of Antioch who is taught by St. John, the Apostle make it clear that we are to eat and drink the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”

-“Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

“Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

“God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him.”

“Dialogue with Trypho”, Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.’ It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-“Dialogue with Trypho”, [41: 8-10]
 
Here is another site that was on a thread ; hope it hasn’t been listed yet if so then ditto;

newadvent.org/fathers/

It has a lot of reading should keep you busy through the holidays.
PEACE AND UNITY AND THANKFULL FOR OUR SAVIOR

**

MERRY CHRISTMASS TO ALL AND PEACE **
 
St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

“So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God’s gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ’s Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, ‘For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones’ (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of ‘spiritual’ and ‘invisible’ man, ‘for a spirit does not have flesh an bones’ (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and ‘the grain of wheat falls into the earth’ (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ.”

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely

Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D. “For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection.”

-“Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis”. Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.
 
ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
St. Clement of Alexandria studied under Pantaenus. He later succeeded him as the director of the school of catechumens in Alexandria, Egypt around the year 200 A.D.,

“The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.”,

-“The Instructor of the Children”. [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,

“The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. ‘Eat My Flesh,’ He says, ‘and drink My Blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!”,

-“The Instructor of the Children” [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D… ,

Now let us look 2000 yrs later. We see consistency of belief that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist. This has not changed. Christians believed it until it was challenge by the new doctrine of Protestants who deny Real Presence. This is a departure from the truth.

Paul said clearly that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, my brethrens, do not teach any strange doctrine.

The new belief of the symbolism of Eucharist is strange and alien to Orthodox Christianity. It is foreign. History has show that Protestant theology change and it isn’t consistent. I hardly think it is professes the truth Christianity. Protestantism itself is just man made which I have said many times before.
 
justasking4 said:
Christ is fully trustworthy men are not.
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Then go to Adoration, and ask Him in Person, whether it is really Him there, or just a piece of bread.

If it is just a piece of bread, then nothing will happen, but if it is really Him, then He will answer you. 🙂
 
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justasking4:
Christ is fully trustworthy men are not
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Jesus also said that we have to eat His flesh and drink his blood. He also said, his flesh is real food indeed, and his blood is real drink.

If you truly trust Jesus, you take his word truthfully. You would have to believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ.

On the side note, the word Eucharist derives from the Greek word eucharista which means thanks.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
On the side note, the word Eucharist derives from the Greek word eucharistia which means thanks.
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. . . and John 6:23 notes, regarding the feeding of the 5000:

However, boats from Tiberias came near the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks. (Eucharistesantos)
 
If i understand you correctly then in John 6 Jesus is advocating canabalism. This is what follows from what you are saying.
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I’m still waiting for you to prove to me that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. It’s just paper and ink, as far as I can tell.
 
I find it amazing that catholics believe that something has happened to the bread and wine even though there is no evidence for it.
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There’s also absolutely no material evidence that God created the world. So why do you believe that the Word in the flesh had less power than the Word at the beginning of all things?

Your confession is not that Jesus was being figurative. Your confession is that Jesus is not God, who spoke His Word and created the universe. You ought to rethink the slippery slope you’ve fallen down.
 
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