The Eucharist: Real Presence or symbol?

[joe370]

This is totally my fault and I apologize for derailing the thread. I just thought if I could show that a new testament priesthood was prophesied it might prove useful in illustrating the necessity of the sacrifice of the Eucharist, fro every sacrifice needs a priesthood. My bad…

FOLKS this conversation is both off track and not revelent to the Eucharist

Under the **Old Covennat **the priest DID NOT cooperate in making God present; UNDERthe NEW Covenant; Gus uses His Priest to Make Himself Really and truly Present.

Heb. 8: 13 “ In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

**1 Cor. 11: 23 “**For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for * you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

**Heb. 8: 6 **“But as it is, Christ * has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

2 Cor. 3:12-16 “Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor. But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.”

God Bless,
Patrick

 

[Nicea325]

Good day, Nicea. Hope all is well with you and yours. God bless.

The same question could be asked about ‘cutting off a hand’ and ‘plucking out an eye’.

Jesus did not deceive. He sure knew He’d be misunderstood.

His disciples misunderstood but they knew tha He have the Words of eternal life. They trusted Him even though they did not fully understand.

Those who were following for the wrong reasons thought Jesus meant it literally. They couldn’t handle it so they left. The wrong type of followers were ‘weeded’ out.

At least that’s how I see it.

God Bless you Dokimas and all your loved ones.Indeed my brother in Christ. I know we do not agree on many issues,as a result,all I can say is that we must all pray for unity of the soul,heart and mind.

God bless you

 

[Dokimas]

God Bless you Dokimas and all your loved ones.Indeed my brother in Christ. I know we do not agree on many issues,as a result,all I can say is that we must all pray for unity of the soul,heart and mind.

God bless you

That’s a great prayer.

I think we agree on many important things, don’t you?

 

[Nicea325]

That’s a great prayer.

I think we agree on many important things, don’t you?

Yes my friend. Salvation being the biggest goal…

 

[rinnie]

That’s a great prayer.

I think we agree on many important things, don’t you?

I do!! The most important thing we have in common is our Love for Christ. The rest will just come with time.

 

[PJM]

=rinnie;7635664]I do!! The most important thing we have in common is our Love for Christ. The rest will just come with time.

WHY do you hold this belief? {After all it’s been 400years] and thousands of Christian faiths later/

How do you think this will come about? I’ll pray your correct!

 

[rinnie]

WHY do you hold this belief? {After all it’s been 400years] and thousands of Christian faiths later/

How do you think this will come about? I’ll pray your correct!

The Power of the Holy Spirit Baby!!! The Holy Spirit can make anything happen. P.S. See your prayers are answered

IMO the Catholic teaching isn’t as much the problem really, as the Catholic People themselves in the past. And the People who feel they truly understand the Catholic teaching and haven’t a clue what it really is.

The easiest way to have a person turn to the Catholic faith is simple. Tell them to honestly study history and the teaching’s of the Apostles. And it seems when they truly study and see it for themselves the Holy Spirit leads them the rest of the way.

The first step to the truth is to find it, and for many it takes a long time, for others not so long. Sometimes I don’t think its the ability to find the truth, but accept what you have been taught all along is not the truth.

And we have to feel bad, because think how we would feel, and how important our faith is to us, theirs is just as important. ITs hard to let go of something you have believed in for your whole life. And especially knowing your Parents, Grandparents, Great etc. followed the same teaching.

But there comes a time in life that you read, and read and study and find out that what you were brought up to believe is not the truth. And thats when the Holy Spirit will carry you home.

 

[Dokimas]

I do!! The most important thing we have in common is our Love for Christ. The rest will just come with time.

And I’m counting the hours till lyou understand as I do.

 

[Dokimas]

WHY do you hold this belief? {After all it’s been 400years] and thousands of Christian faiths later/

How do you think this will come about? I’ll pray your correct!

By you changing your mind.

 

[rinnie]

And I’m counting the hours till lyou understand as I do.

Well you better as they say Pack a lunch But seriously Dokimas I will never understand as you do, simply because you do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide me. Jesus promised that to the APostles to lead the Church.

So while I cannot understand as you do, I would never expect you to understand as I would. We must come together and understand as God teaches.

 

[fred_conty]

Verses 29, 35, 40, and 47 tell you what Jesus was telling them to do. Verse 65 is a final attempt to get them to understand.
It was only after deliberate ignorance on the part of His listeners that he began to get metaphoric.
Ezekiel 3:1-4 gives another example of eating something that isn’t really supposed to be eaten, but it does give an insight on what it means.

The passover lamb was representative of Jesus Christ.
The Last Supper was done in rememberance of the body and blood of Christ and is where Jesus assigned the meaning of the bread and wine.

Symbols are very powerful reminders of events and concepts. The Lord used them throughout the OT in the rituals and ordinances performed. Jews were no stranger to symbolic and metphoric meanings.

We know what symbols are. That’s why obviously the Eucharist can’t be one.​

Lamb of God, eat the flesh, drink the blood, have life.

 

[fred_conty]

So since Catholic priests are the fulfillment of the Levitical Priesthood, they are Levites/Levitical priests? Does the Catholic Church teach that her priests are Levites?

Yes, in this way.

There is a direct line from Moses who said, “Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you,” Ex.24,8, to Jesus, the new Moses, who said,"This is my blood of the covenant,"Mt 26,28, and a direct line from Jesus to the priest in your local parish.

Just as every Jewish priest had been ordained by a Jewish priest, who was ordained by Aaron, who had been ordained by Moses by God’s command, so also today
every Catholic bishop priest has been ordained by a Catholic bishop priest, who had been ordained by Jesus himself at the last supper command,"…do this in memory of me."​

Lamb of God, eat this flesh, drink this blood, have life.

 

[Dokimas]

Well you better as they say Pack a lunch But seriously Dokimas I will never understand as you do, simply because you do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide me. Jesus promised that to the APostles to lead the Church.

So while I cannot understand as you do, I would never expect you to understand as I would. We must come together and understand as God teaches.

You are saying I don’t have the Holy Spirit?

Aren’t you saying that we can’t come together unless I understand things like you?

 

[PJM]

=rinnie;7636898]The Power of the Holy Spirit Baby!!! The Holy Spirit can make anything happen. P.S. See your prayers are answered

IMO the Catholic teaching isn’t as much the problem really, as the Catholic People themselves in the past. And the People who feel they truly understand the Catholic teaching and haven’t a clue what it really is.

The easiest way to have a person turn to the Catholic faith is simple. Tell them to honestly study history and the teaching’s of the Apostles. And it seems when they truly study and see it for themselves the Holy Spirit leads them the rest of the way.

The first step to the truth is to find it, and for many it takes a long time, for others not so long. Sometimes I don’t think its the ability to find the truth, but accept what you have been taught all along is not the truth.

And we have to feel bad, because think how we would feel, and how important our faith is to us, theirs is just as important. ITs hard to let go of something you have believed in for your whole life. And especially knowing your Parents, Grandparents, Great etc. followed the same teaching.

But there comes a time in life that you read, and read and study and find out that what you were brought up to believe is not the truth. And thats when the Holy Spirit will carry you home.

VERY GOD REPLY! Thanks,

It seems to me [IMO] that a necessary first step is to be seeking the truth. Especially for non- Catholics on this Forum.

Very often the [SINGUALR… there can after all be ONLY ONE] replies are given that at least ought to cause serious thougths and reflections; but seem to only be ignored.

Granddady used to say: “if you don’t want to know; don’t ask.”

God bless,
Pat

 

[Nicea325]

You are saying I don’t have the Holy Spirit?

Aren’t you saying that we can’t come together unless I understand things like you?

Of course you and many others have the Holy Spirit. My friend, pray…just pray.

 

[Dokimas]

Of course you and many others have the Holy Spirit. My friend, pray…just pray.

I was wondering what Rinnie was meaning in the post I quoted.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Dokimas
You are saying I don’t have the Holy Spirit?

**Aren’t you saying that we can’t come together unless I understand things like you?/**QUOTE]

THE REPLY

Of course you and many others have the Holy Spirit. My friend, pray…just pray.

My dear friend in Christ: May I please interject and give a direct response to your question.

Actually, your very close to the Truth in asking this. Only it’s not the person who responded; nor is it me; whose opinions everyone MUST ACCEPT. ***It is God’s Son! ***And Christ continues to teach the SINGULAR TRUTHS on ALL matters of Faith and Morals in the present time; through the very instrament Christ Created and Founded for this very purpose; His Catholic Church. [Matt. 16:15-19].

**How can One Know that this is God’s Will and Desire? ** Because esus Himself makes in abundently clear:

2Tim.3: 16 to 17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.”

**Eph. 2:19-20 “**So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular[/COLOR]] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

Eph. 4: 4 -8“There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, Only One God] ONLY one faith, Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

ONLY the CC can claim that BOTH Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit; remain IN THE CC to guide; protect an lead her in TRUTHFUL TEACHINGS on Faith and Morals.

2ND. Peter 1: 16-21 “For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever
came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God

**John 14: 16-17 ** And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."

**John 17: 14-19 “**I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”

So my friend; there is because there can ONLY BE one TRUTH on any issue: Christ has determined that this singular TRUTH would remain in His CC, and that He and the Holy Spirit; guarentee it’s valid message.

So your RIGHT Everyone MUST agree with the CC on ALL issues of Faith and Morals; because Christ say’s so; and MAKES it so.

Do not confuse “The CC” with the people within Her as being the same. The CC belongs to it’s Founder; Jesus Christ! IT is an “Enity” unto itself. Her memembers are but the “Mystical-Body” of Christ. Except on Offical Teachings on Faith and Morals; errors and sins can, have, and will hapen; BUT on Faith and Morals; the singular TRUTH resides within the CC, and in order for any other faith to have the TRUTH; this church MUST conform to the Offical Positions of the CC.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[guanophore]

Just because something may or may not be “history” does not mean it is perfect.

It is really a mystery what you are trying to say here. It appears that you are discarding the history of the Catholic faith, and are asserting that, just because it is historically accurate does not make it true.

Many things have occured in history which have not exactly been good things. But neither does it mean something is not true.

Yes. History is replete wtih examples of occurances that have not been “good things”.

However, in this case, history attests that the Apostles taught the Real Presence. History testifies to this because it is a Truth.

 We simply truly do not know in matters of faith and belief as much as we may want to believe we do.  That is why it is called faith.

What we are talking about here, though, CM, is doctrine. This is Truth that has been revealed to man through His Son Jesus. There are many ways of “knowing”, and one of them is to receive revelation from God. That revelation exists apart and above your personal experience of faith and belief. It is immutable and eternal, whether or not you and I ever exist.

You may not be a revisionist but the Catholic Church has revised disciplines or guidelines thru the yrs.

Yes, disciplines, practices and pastoral guidance changes, but the doctrine of the faith does not. It was delivered “once for all” to the Church through the Apostles and has been infallibly preserved there by the HS. Equating a doctrine of the faith such as the Real Presence with a discipline is disingenous.

It is also inaccurate to imply that either of them is “revisionist”. That term implies that history has been rewritten to accomdate a modern belief. This has not happened in the case of the doctrine of the Real Presence.

Would a closeted gay priest having a secret homosexual relationship unbeknownst to you be Biblical? What about the priests who have molested children or the bishops would who have covered it up? Baptism by immersion of someone of a greater age than infancy is clearly found in the Bible. But assuming households had infants, there are examples of households being baptized as well. So it comes down to faith.

No, CM, it does not . It may be a matter of “faith” to you whether or not you accept the doctrines passed down to us by the Aposltes, but those doctrines come from God, and exist apart and above your personal faith experience.

The question is not so much about whether Jesus promised truth. It is more about whether He has to correct or reform His Church and where He takes it, to prevent the gates from prevailing as He promised they would not do.

I agree. However, God does not reveal things to individuals 2000 years after the fact that contradict what He has already revealed previously.

And again that is where faith comes in. I do not understand why folks can not believe they “know” if that is what they need.

Because Truth exists apart from any one persons experience of knowing and believing.

Individual experiences don’t change eternal Truth,
CMatt25;7624525:

While at the same time recognizing faith and belief is not the same as absolute certainty.

This is one of your favorite strawmen, isn’t it CM? You seem to like to make the Truth not about what God has revealed for us to know, but about “absolute certainty” over things that have nothing to do with His revelation.

It appears to be a ruse that you are using to avoid obedience to what He HAS revealed.

If you convince yourself that no one can really know with “absolute certainty” then maybe you can justify disobedience?

But, look at it another way. I am in a cold sea like the one where the Titanic went down and it is most certain that the longer I stay in the water I will freeze to death. There is a wooden panel, and if I can crawl up on it, then I have a 50/50 chance to survive until I am found. If I have a whistle my chances go up to 75%. If I have a flare gun and a whistle and a life jacket, my chances will go up to 90%. Under what circumstances would I stay in the cold water? When you say “well, we can’t have absolute certainty” it is like saying “I am going to stay here in the cold water, since we can’t know for sure”. It is just illogical.

I am sorry but that concept just totally escapes my reasoning.

This may be because you are not using reasoning. A reasoning person pursues what is more certain.

 

[guanophore]

Guan, you seem to me to have missed my point about faith in all our discussions about it.

I dont’ think so, CM. I think I just reject the false premise upon which your point is based, and therefore, reject your conclusion.

I never said human perfection was required.

I think if you will look back over your post, it will be clear that you are saying that, in order for us to beleive what the Catholic Church teaches, we have to have “faith in the men” who represent the faith. This is wrong, because it is our faith in God to keep His promise to preserve His word that gives us confidence, not the failures of men.

Your theory requires that the shortcomings of man be more powerful than God.

In fact I argue perfect understanding of God is not attainable by humans with finite minds in this lifetime.

Indeed you do, it appears to be one of your favorite strawmen.

On the contrary, the Church teaches that man can understand what God has revealed in order for us to attain heaven. Much of this understanding has as much to do with ourselves as it is about God.

But then if you agree none (I’m thinking “noe” was a typo and you did mean none) of them had everything right from the get go, when Christians did have everything right, if we even do yet, is a matter of faith and belief.

This is the strawman, CMatt. You are asserting that we have to believe that “they” had to have “everything right from the get go”. This is a falsehood. Not only do we not have to have faith in that, but they did not have to have it all right, so this is an error on both sides.

On the contrary, God is able to reveal the Truth to the Church, and He is able to preserve that Truth where He has placed it. He is also able to bring us to understand and live by that Truth.

None of these qualities of God are “a matter of faith and belief”. You seem to like to categorize them that way to justify refusing to accept and live by what He has revealed.

If faith was so easily truly proven to be certain truth, then everyone would hold the same faith.

The revelation of God is above the standards of modern scientific “proofs”. Our scientific ability to “prove” things is valuable, but falls very short of all the ways of knowing Truth. God’s Truth existed before scientific "proofs’ were every discovered by man.

I agree with you, though. All people have the freedom, created in them by God, to reject the Truth He has revealed to mankind.

What you said about my faith steps not including God, I find rather offensive. So I have nothing to say about that other than for you to say that, is certainly a false and misleading statement.

I found it offensive too. It is amazing that you can keep talking about all these “faith steps” that don’t include God at all. They are completely humanistically based. It does say a lot about where your faith is invested.

 I have no problem whatsoever with Catholics believing as they do.  Great!  I would only wish they could admit there is a difference between faith.  And in knowing with 100% absolute certainty

Since this is a false dichotomy that you have set up, and not a Catholic position, I dont’ think you will find any catholics who will “admit” one way, or the other.

This “absolute certainty” you have invented has no merit. It is your way of justifying staying in the frozen sea.

they have all revealed truth in matters of faith.

The Catholic Church teaches that truths about God and His creation can be found everywhwere.

And what is served by not being able to admit that is what I might never understand.

What is served, CMatt, is the commandment of God that we preserved the faith that has been handed down to us. God has revealed His Truth to the would through His One Church. He has preserved this Truth infallibly in by the power of the HS. If we do not hold to this, then we have embraced and are teaching “a different gospel” than the one delivered to us by the Apostles. Do you remember what St. Paul said about such adherants to “a different gospel”? He said “let them be accursed”. Under what circumstances would we want to be accursed?

But I do understand many need a framework to live by and perhaps then a need to think they are for certain right.

Yes, God made mankind with a need for a framework to live by. He also provided that certain framework through His One Body, the Church. Refusal to accept it is like choosing to stay in the frozen sea.

To me faith and belief and saying we know the truth with absolute certainty are oxymorons.

It certainly seems moronic to me too. But then, as long as it is clear that it is your oxymoron, and that it does not describe what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, then I can commend you to it.

But we have discussed this over and over.  And as I have said we may simply have to agree to disagree and move on.

God bless and peace.

I hope you don’t really believe that any faithful Catholics here will sit by and approve while you misrepresent the Catholic faith.

 

[Dokimas]

So my friend; there is because there can ONLY BE one TRUTH on any issue: Christ has determined that this singular TRUTH would remain in His CC, and that He and the Holy Spirit; guarentee it’s valid message.

So your RIGHT Everyone MUST agree with the CC on ALL issues of Faith and Morals; because Christ say’s so; and MAKES it so.

Pat

You’ve made it quite clear what you believe. Seems we have little to communicate except we understand the love and grace and mercy of God quite differently. So be it.