The Eucharist - Real Presence or Symbolic?

[Eden]

april_hosen:

adnauseum,
I dont know how you got onto the subject of Amen. but hey whatever floats your boat.

I think adnauseum is saying that when Jesus says “Amen I say to you” when He tells them “This is my body”, the word “Amen” places emphasis on what He is telling them. Adnauseum is saying that when Jesus’ followers were shocked by the idea of literally eating his Body, to emphasize that He really meant it literally He said, “Amen I say to you”. Adnauseum was showing the Amen translated into modern day speech as,“Dude, I’m not kidding. I really mean this is my body.” or if you prefer another way, “No. Seriously. I really mean this is my Body.”

 

[april_hosen]

Oh goodness!

I seemed to of missed that part! My appologies!

 

[Lillith]

My absolutely favorite scripture that supports the real presence…LUKE ch. 24:13-35

The appearance on the Road to Emmaus…two of the disciples were walking to Jerusalem, and discussing the days events, when Jesus came up and startes talking to them, but they don’t know who he is (for some reason…I think to impress on them the real presence) And they told him everything about how they had hoped Jesus would redeem Israel, and how he was handed over to be crucified, and about the resurrection…and Jesus says you dummys, this had to happen and then he teaches them, and walks all the way to the village. They enjoyed his teaching so much (I fancy they thought they might have a new prophit) that when they came to the village and Jesus acted like he might move on they begged him to come in…and he did

30. AND it happened that he was with them at the table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. 31. With that their eyes were opened and the recognized him, but he vanished from their sight…

35. Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.**

I ask…how much clearer can it possibly get?

 

[NotWorthy]

Jesus as the Passover Lamb? If you haven’t seen Scott Hahn’s The Fourth Cup, you don’t completely understand the relationship between the first Passover and Jesus’ Last Supper and Passion.

The Road to Emmaus? Jesus relates the Scriptures (Liturgy of the Word) which causes their hearts “to catch fire” and then breaks the bread (Liturgy of the Eucharist) which “opened their hearts to Him”. Wow, the first Post-Resurrection Mass!

Dude, where’s my guitar? Why do I suddenly want to watch Jesus Christ Superstar?

Seriously, great posts and great points, all of you!

NotWorthy

 

[cheddarsox]

I think the best evidence of all for real presence would be the difference it makes in the lives of those who partake of it! If people are actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. Wow! Like that will definitely show in their lives, because how could someone be that intimate with Christ, have Christ present within them, and NOT show it?

I mean this. If you want people to believe, Live like Christ is in you, sacraficed for you, and gives Himself to you daily or weekly, then absolutely no apologetics will be neccessary, ever.

cheddar

 

[wcknight]

There is NO controversy. Catholics believe in the real presence and not some symbolic presence, AND it has been verified 110% with several Eucharistic miracles, several over 1300 years ago !!!

 

[mercygate]

wcknight:

There is NO controversy. Catholics believe in the real presence and not some symbolic presence, AND it has been verified 110% with several Eucharistic miracles, several over 1300 years ago !!!

It just occurred to me that one of the reasons Protestants get so touchy about the Real Presence and insist on a metaphorical interpretation of John 6, is that without Apostolic Priesthood, they do not have the Real Presence. Therefore, they need to “etherealize” the whole concept in order to validate their situation. Moreover, since they cannot receive those rare, personal, mystical experiences of Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist that Catholics occasionally receive, they have nothing to prompt a personal re-visitation of their theology.

 

[Eden]

cheddarsox:

I think the best evidence of all for real presence would be the difference it makes in the lives of those who partake of it! If people are actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. Wow! Like that will definitely show in their lives, because how could someone be that intimate with Christ, have Christ present within them, and NOT show it?

I mean this. If you want people to believe, Live like Christ is in you, sacraficed for you, and gives Himself to you daily or weekly, then absolutely no apologetics will be neccessary, ever.

cheddar

If you believe no apologetics will be necessary ever, I take it you don’t believe in the devil AND I take it that you don’t believe that Christ’s Church will be persecuted as He was persecuted for speaking truth.

 

[Eden]

mercygate:

It just occurred to me that one of the reasons Protestants get so touchy about the Real Presence and insist on a metaphorical interpretation of John 6, is that without Apostolic Priesthood, they do not have the Real Presence. Therefore, they need to “etherealize” the whole concept in order to validate their situation. Moreover, since they cannot receive those rare, personal, mystical experiences of Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist that Catholics occasionally receive, they have nothing to prompt a personal re-visitation of their theology.

Yes, mercygate. I’ve see this described as the “Real Absence”. That really sums it up. Sad.

 

[cheddarsox]

Eden:

If you believe no apologetics will be necessary ever, I take it you don’t believe in the devil AND I take it that you don’t believe that Christ’s Church will be persecuted as He was persecuted for speaking truth.

I was speaking of apologetics on this issue.

If the real presence of Christ is in his people, because He has given that gift to them, then share that presence with the world, it will do more good, and more converting of minds, spirits and souls than any number of words could ever do.

I am sorry that you feel it necessary to find offense in everything I post.

peace Eden,

cheddar

 

[NotWorthy]

cheddarsox:

If the real presence of Christ is in his people, because He has given that gift to them, then share that presence with the world, it will do more good, and more converting of minds, spirits and souls than any number of words could ever do.

AMEN! If you are living the life described, then you are living “Apologetic-ly”, and hence, no further Apologetics are necessary. Either for the Devil, as God’s Grace will shield you from his destruction, or for others, because they will see Christ’s Light in your actions.

NotWorthy

 

[Catholics4Life]

cheddarsox:

I think the best evidence of all for real presence would be the difference it makes in the lives of those who partake of it! If people are actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. Wow! Like that will definitely show in their lives, because how could someone be that intimate with Christ, have Christ present within them, and NOT show it?

I mean this. If you want people to believe, Live like Christ is in you, sacraficed for you, and gives Himself to you daily or weekly, then absolutely no apologetics will be neccessary, ever.

cheddar

Partaking in the Eucharist and having Christ within us does not take away free will. People can still sin, etc. but when we receive Jesus, it helps us to battle our own sins and to also receive healing for our sinful desires. But, I repeat: It does not take away our free will to choose good or evil.

Judas walked with Jesus, He was right there with Judas, visible, performing miracles, healing…and still Judas betrayed Him. It was Judas’ free will to choose this path, and God allows free will to choose HIm or to choose to go against His will.

And, lastly, I agree with you that those you believe in God’s word should show it with their actions and words. We should all be a living testimony to the truth. Jesus taught, we should listen and do as He instructed in all matters.

 

[cheddarsox]

I’ve seen people who live like Christ is in them!

To build on an old adage…you might be the only Catachism a person ever reads.

I believe in real presence, and I am not even Catholic, because I have met people that clearly had Christ within them!

cheddar

 

[Eden]

cheddarsox:

I was speaking of apologetics on this issue.

If the real presence of Christ is in his people, because He has given that gift to them, then share that presence with the world, it will do more good, and more converting of minds, spirits and souls than any number of words could ever do.

I am sorry that you feel it necessary to find offense in everything I post.

peace Eden,

cheddar

I reread your post and I realize that I took your post the wrong way. I had just read your responses in a different thread which I thought were unnecessarily harsh about the Church so my knee-jerk reaction was to see negativity in your post here. My apologies. Rereading it, I completely agree with what you are saying. I hope we can start over!

 

[O.S.Luke]

mercygate:

It just occurred to me that one of the reasons Protestants get so touchy about the Real Presence and insist on a metaphorical interpretation of John 6, is that without Apostolic Priesthood, they do not have the Real Presence. Therefore, they need to “etherealize” the whole concept in order to validate their situation. Moreover, since they cannot receive those rare, personal, mystical experiences of Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist that Catholics occasionally receive, they have nothing to prompt a personal re-visitation of their theology.

You probably need to amend your statement to say “Some Protestants…” Protestants who are descendents of Zwingli DO believe in the Real Absence, and for them eucharist is not a sacrament.

However, the Lutheran and Anglican lines reject “Real Absence.” Lutherans have always embraced Real Presence (read Luther’s statements in the Marburg Colloquy), as does the the Church of England

You can’t paint Protestants with one broad stroke on this.For many Protestants, this is not an issue, so this is not the touchy situation you state in all churches.

O+

 

[cheddarsox]

Eden:

I reread your post and I realize that I took your post the wrong way. I had just read your responses in a different thread which I thought were unnecessarily harsh about the Church so my knee-jerk reaction was to see negativity in your post here. My apologies. Rereading it, I completely agree with what you are saying. I hope we can start over!

Certainly!

cheddar

 

[pangit]

hi, im newsimple catholic, just share my ideas

Eucharist is Real Presence and not Symbol,

In symbol — example: PICTURE if we destroy it, it is only the
picture being destroyed not the one it
represents.

while in the Real Presence----those who ate the bread and not
1 Cor. 11:27 worthy sinned against the body of Jesus
himself.

For the Jews the Eating of Flesh and Drinking of Blood SYMBOLIZED Anger, revenge and distruction. that is why
Eucharist Is Not a Symbol.

 

[Erich]

wcknight:

There is NO controversy. Catholics believe in the real presence and not some symbolic presence, AND it has been verified 110% with several Eucharistic miracles, several over 1300 years ago !!!

I certainly don’t need any convincing of the truth of Catholic teaching (in fact I find accounts of Eucharistic miracles fascinating), but how would you respond to someone who counters that just because certain events are unexplainable with modern science does not mean they are not satanic in origin (and quotes 2 Thes. 2:8-10, “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved”)?

 

[Eden]

Erich:

I certainly don’t need any convincing of the truth of Catholic teaching (in fact I find accounts of Eucharistic miracles fascinating), but how would you respond to someone who counters that just because certain events are unexplainable with modern science does not mean they are not satanic in origin (and quotes 2 Thes. 2:8-10, “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved”)?

It’s interesting that you should ask this question not long after I read this in the Apologetics forum:

catholicism.org/pages/aubrey.htm

 

[EA_Man]

mercygate:

It just occurred to me that one of the reasons Protestants get so touchy about the Real Presence and insist on a metaphorical interpretation of John 6, is that without Apostolic Priesthood, they do not have the Real Presence. Therefore, they need to “etherealize” the whole concept in order to validate their situation. Moreover, since they cannot receive those rare, personal, mystical experiences of Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist that Catholics occasionally receive, they have nothing to prompt a personal re-visitation of their theology.

Protestants do believe that they have Jesus in them.

Colossians 1:27 - “Christ in you, the hope of Glory.”
Galatians 2:20 - “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”

They don’t believe that Jesus dissolves in their stomachs.

Peace