The Eucharist,transubstatiation,belief and miracles

[cyprian]

Pax:

Curious and Reformed Bob,

Please note that I gave exegitical evidence for understanding both the Eucharist and the verses from Matthew concerning cutting off one’s hand and plucking out one’s eye. This is necessary for interpreting scripture and appreciating the meaning of what is being said. Sometimes symbolic language is obvious but clear in its meaning. When Jesus speaks of himself as the vine and refers to us as the branches, we know that He is speaking symbolically and we know what He means. In reference to the eating His flesh and blood, “everyone” at the seen knew that He was speaking literally and what he meant. They just wouldn’t accept it or believe it. Please note that it says in John 6:64 that “…there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him."
Amen! As a literary device a figure of speech is usable only when it’s meaning is understandable. This may be true in either the nature of the remark as when I point to a picture and say “this is my mother or say of an active child “he’s a perpetual motion machine” or of a fast horse “that nag is greased lightening”. Or a metaphor may be understood because it’s meaning is explained like when I arange some matches on a table and say"now this is my house, and the bedroom is right here” But neither by the nature of the case nor by the explaination given can the words this is my body have any meaning as a metaphor. The idea of Jesus speaking in metaphors at the Last Supper becomes all the more incredible when we realize that the men he was addressing were-most of them- poor, uneducated fishermen. They were not trained in the niceities of rhetoric.
Peace and Love always

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Thanks Cyprian, that was a good point.

Bravo, lad

 

[Defensor_Fidei]

Looking to Scripture for help with figurative flesh eating we find each and everytime figurative flesh eating is used, it means to attack or assault:

16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. - Rev. 17:16 (KJB)

We see that eating the harlot’s flesh is a figure of speech for attacking the harlot. These is no actual eating going on here.

2When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell. – Psalms 27:2 (KJB)

And here eating David’s flesh is a figure of speech for attacking David

26And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. - Isaiah 49:26

And those that oppress will eat their own flesh is a figure of speech meaning that the oppressors will attack their own.

42I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. Deuteronomy 32:42

This is even far more explicit in that the sword devours flesh and because the sword is used to attack or assault.

8Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited. Isaiah 31:8 (KJB)

Again, this is explicit in that the sword devours flesh and because the sword is used to attack or assault.

28Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. 30And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. Lev 26:28-29(KJB)

Here we see that eating the children’s flesh is a figure of speech for attacking the children assaulting the family.

53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee. DT 28:53 (KJB)

We see that eating the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters is a figure of speech for attacking the children and assaulting the family.

9And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them. Jer 19:9 (KJB)

Here we see that eating the flesh of their sons and their daughters is a figure of speech for attacking the children and assaulting the family.

24Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain. Numbers 23:24 (KJB)

We see that drinking the blood of the slain is a figure of speech for attacking.

3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. James 5:3 (KJB)

Again eating your own flesh is an assault or attack. There is no actual eating going on here.

Flesh eating and blood drinking in the Bible had only one meaning when used figuratively. So when someone claims that Jesus was only speaking figuratively in John 6 52-55, we can look through the Bible and check to see how it is used. Each and every time flesh eating or blood drinkng is used in a figurative sense, it means to attack or assault. We can insert attack or assault into these verses and see how it fits.

52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye attack of the Son of man, and assault him, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso attacks me, and assaults me, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. - John 6:52-55 (KJB)

Examining Holy Scripture to see what figurative flesh eating means, Holy Scripture shows that a figurative interpretation of John 6:52-55 is impossible. There is no figurative flesh eating in the Bible that means anything other than attack or assault. To compound this problem, John’s use of figurative flesh eating in the book of Revelation carries the same destructive meaning. To hold the position that John 6:52-55 is figurative is contradictory to what the Bible tells us about figurative flesh eating.

 

[BibleReader]

Hi, folks.

Since I wasn’t here for most of the discussion – I’m a newbie – I thought that the folks here, especially Mr. Ennis, might be interested in some of the Real Presence word pictures we picked out of the Bible, which teach the doctrine of the Real Presence.

(1) This one is known to all and sundry: The basic Nativity scene in Luke 2…

**7 **and she gave birth to her firstborn son. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. Luke 2:7.
Note well: Jesus wrapped in swaddling clothes looks like dead Jesus wrapped in a shroud. A manger was a feeding trough for yoked animals, a kind of “dinner plate.”

And where did all of this take place?..

**4 ****And Joseph too went up from Galilee from the town of Nazareth to Judea, to the city of David that is called Bethlehem,… Luke 2:4. **“Bethlehem” is Hebrew meaning “House of Bread.”
So, look at what we have: Instead of a picture of bread on a dinner plate in the House of Bread, we have a picture of the actual body of sacrificed Jesus on a dinner plate in the House of Bread.

Get it? We are being told, “The bread = the actual body of dead Jesus.” The Real Presence.

Because of the word limit in these posting rectangles, I’ll provide other Real Presence Scriptures in separate posts.