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John89
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ive had people tell me that the catholics use crackers and are supposed to use real bread, and they have actually made fun of it, and said we copied pagans… what should i tell to people like that ?
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LilyM
Guest
We use unleavened bread because it was what the Jews used at Passover and what Jesus used at the Last Supper - why would any self-respecting Christian NOT want to do as He did?
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Church_Militant
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They’re crazy. We use unleavened bread just as Our Lord did at the last supper. Jews weren’t/aren’t allowed unleavened bread at Passover.
People who allege paganism in this are probably not worth arguing with because they are either 1. accepting the word of some of the worst of anti-Catholic propaganda or 2. are so heinously ignorant that they will not hear you anyway.
Chick makes the usual charges against the Eucharist. He doesn’t like the Real Presence and the sacrifice of the Mass in particular. He even says that the Mass is not mentioned in Scripture, despite the fact that the very first Mass occurred during the Last Supper (cf. Luke 22:19–20). The charges he makes have been answered many times.
What is distinctive about his approach is the attempt he makes to link the Eucharist with paganism. He claims: “On the altars of Egypt were sun-shaped wafers made of unleavened bread. These wafers were consecrated by the Egyptian priests and supposedly they magically became the flesh of the sun god, Osiris.”[52]
Although Osiris was an Egyptian god, he wasn’t the sun god. That was Ra (in some cases identified with Horus). Osiris was the grain god and the god of the dead. There were grain cakes (little and not so little) connected with the worship of Osiris, but, since he wasn’t the sun god, they were not shaped like the sun. They were shaped like a man since Osiris was pictured as a man. The use of these grain men was connected with Osiris’s annual cycle as the god of grain. Every year, the Egyptians made cakes shaped like Osiris out of grain as an offering asking the grain god to reappear and make the land fruitful again. According to Egyptian wall art, priests even watered the cakes to get the grain in them to sprout and send up shoots. These Osiris cakes weren’t anything like communion wafers.[53]
From Man in Black
Another of Chick’s attempts to link the Eucharist with paganism is found in his frequent depictions of the host imprinted with the letters IHS. He tells the reader that this stands for a trio of Egyptian gods (who were not a trinity, incidentally). Chick’s claim is nonsense. The letters aren’t English at all, but Greek. In fact, they are the first three letters of Jesus’ name in Greek: iota-eta-sigma (capital eta in Greek looks like the English H). This has been a common abbreviation for Jesus throughout Church history.
Though you wouldn’t know it from Chick, few Catholics have ever seen a host imprinted with these letters. Most hosts either have nothing on them or a cross design. What design, if any, is imprinted on a host is up to the maker. There is no Church regulation on this, and few makers have used the IHS design. Yet Chick would lead one to believe that it is omnipresent in Catholic churches.The Eucharist IS Scriptural
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PC_Master
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Eh, I know a great many Protestant churches which use flat bread, which is far more similar to what Jesus would have used than crackers. Flat bread is still bread.
So, tell me – if you used a flat bread (which has no leaven) instead of crackers, would that not be legitimate? In fact, wouldn’t that be more legitimate than using crackers?
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jemfinch
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Do note that Eastern Christians (including Eastern Catholics in union with Pope) have always used (and continue to use today) leavened bread for the Eucharist in their divine liturgy.
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agangbern
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What do you mean with “in union with the Pope”? Are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church is now using leavened bread in the Holy Mass? To the best of my knowledge, the Roman Catholic Church is not using leavened bread but unleavened. If my knowledge is wrong, please show proof.
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rwoehmke
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What is being said is that Eastern Rite Catholic Churches, which are in union with the Pope, use leavened bread for the Eucharistic Celebration. The Latin Rite Catholic Church uses the unleavened flat wafer. Your knowledge of what the Latin Rite uses is not wrong. I believe there are 20 some Rites that are in union with the Pope; the Latin Rite being the largest.
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1ke
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Many Baptist churches use crackers (and vials of grape juice), as do some other protestant denominations.
Catholics use bread, unleavened in the Latin Church and leavened in the Eastern Rite Churches. The requirements for the Eucharistic elements are even spelled out in canon law. It’s not a secret.
John, you need to study a little more. Firstly, you are a Catholic and presumably receive the Host every Sunday. Therefore, you can provide eyewitness testimony that Catholics do not use crackers.
Secondly, what proof is there that “pagans” use “crackers” and for what purpose? Which pagans? Where? When? Details, John.
If they are going to assert something, they need to provide proof of their allegations.
You should tell them to show you the evidence.
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JustaServant
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They are probable getting their information from the ‘The Two Babylons’. This book is second only to the ‘Elders of Zion’ for dispensing paranoid conspiritoral propaganda.
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bpbasilphx
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<<We use unleavened bread because it was what the Jews used at Passover and what Jesus used at the Last Supper - why would any self-respecting Christian NOT want to do as He did?>>
Are you accusing the Eastern Churches of NOT wanting to do as Jesus did, as most of them use leavened bread?
Actually, if you read the accounts of the Mystical Supper in the Greek Gospels, it says unambiguously that Jesus took ARTOS, which always means leavened bread.
Are you accusing the Eastern Churches of NOT wanting to do as Jesus did, as most of them use leavened bread?
Actually, if you read the accounts of the Mystical Supper in the Greek Gospels, it says unambiguously that Jesus took ARTOS, which always means leavened bread.
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Subrosa
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The Armenian Apostolic Church uses unleavened bread and claims to have used it from very early in it’s history. armenianchurch.org/
The Holy Bread
Unleavened Bread (Nshkhar Yev Mas)
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Subrosa
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The Armenian Apostolic Church uses unleavened bread and claims to have used it from very early in it’s history. armenianchurch.org/
The Holy Bread
Unleavened Bread (Nshkhar Yev Mas)
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VociMike
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The reason the Church uses bread in the wafer form she uses has to do mostly with the issue of crumbs. Since we believe that the bread truly becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, out of simple respect we don’t want to be dropping crumbs here and there.
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on_fire
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do not get into a debate with someone who says there" heard" such and so.tell them when they can identify where and from whom they are getting their info,then you will discuss what ever they want to.
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Genesis315
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The “crackers” as you called them, are simply wheat flour and water, no different than any other flat-bread–the difference is they are simply thinner and smaller, which is why they tend to be more brittle.
As for legitimacy in regards to protestants, it doesn’t matter anyway since there’s no sacramental reality involved with their communion service or “Lord’s Supper” of whatever it may be called.
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John89
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my family is maronite catholic and i always attend the maronite mass, we use unleavened bread there also.
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Church_Militant
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legitimate than using crackers?Yep…but without the consecration that apostolic succession brings one still has only bread and juice (or wine).
More legitimate yes. Sacramental, no.
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zografou
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In the Gospel of John 13:1- it is written: (the italics are mine)
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"Now *before *the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come....The feast of unleavened bread had not begun!
And again in John 18:28 - it is written (again, the italics are mine)
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"They led Jesus from Caiphas unto the hall of judgement: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgement hall, lest they should be defiled; *but that they might eat the passover*."“And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!”
And again in John 19:31 - it is written (again the italics are mine)
“The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.”
And it is written in John 20:1 - (again the italics are mine)
“The* first day on the week* came Mary Magdalene early when it was yet dark…”
And again in John 20:19 - it is written (again the italics are mine)
"Then the same day at evening, *being the first day of the week, *The sabbath, being the 7th day, established by the Lord (Genesis 2:2-3) and that sabbath being “an high one” …
The Feast of Passover and the beginning of the Feast of unleavened bread (Exodus, Leviticus). This first day, the day of the Lord, the day of His Glorious Resurrection, which in Greek is called, Kyriaki (the day of the Lord; but also meaning first -as in primary -as in cheif…
Oh, what fullness is lost in translation; like going to the symphony only to hear one instument playing the tune, Kyrie Eleison). In Latin languages Dominica, Dominga…only in English is it misunderstood as having any reference to the sun!
Again, oh, what fullness is lost in translation; like going to the symphony only to hear one instument playing the tune, Kyrie Eleison!
From the prophets, with the forshadowing of the old testament, from Holy Scripture and Holy Apostolic Tradition we know and confess the Lord’s Resurrection on the third day; that He was crucified and died on the cross on the day of Preparation, which in Greek is called, Paraskevi (the day of prepatation), which is the 6th day of the week; that He resurrected on the third day, that day being the first day of the week according to the creation of days.
So, Kyrie Eleison, whom should I choose to believe?..
The disciple, apostle and Evangalist John, who was there and taught and wrote that which is most excellent and prefection in Truth!
Christ Himself said, “I am the Bread of Life…” Amen.
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Subrosa
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MarcoPolo
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I recommend Jimmy Akin’s article The Pagan Influence Fallacy.
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