T
Thorolfr
Guest
We don’t know what all the factors are that make a person who they are. There are probably a mixture of both genetic and environmental influences.
- Status
P
Peter_J
Guest
B
benjohnson
Guest
If you view sexuality as a continuum, there’s people in the middle.
P
Peter_J
Guest
Hi Sarcelle. If I’ve learned anything from my time on the CA forums, it is that even when something could be anticipated, it can still be a bit of a shock to actually encounter it. In the case of this thread, the fact that many “traditionalist” Catholics don’t find Courage to even be conservative enough for their liking (inasmuch as it does not support conversion therapy). I just pray that people reading this thread understand that those posters don’t represent all Catholics.
But, having said that, I have to add that I don’t think your argument (below) would convince many people in the ex-gay movement. On the contrary, their whole view is based on the idea that little Bobby or Cindy “became gay” as a result of being raised wrong (or even being abused sexually).
But, having said that, I have to add that I don’t think your argument (below) would convince many people in the ex-gay movement. On the contrary, their whole view is based on the idea that little Bobby or Cindy “became gay” as a result of being raised wrong (or even being abused sexually).
D
Deus_tecum
Guest
And on top of that, who people think they are often is not who they really are. Throughout the New Testament we are implored to die to self. Die to self. Dissolution of the self centered ego; not merely remanufacturing a Christian ego. St. Paul said to the formerly sexually immoral, “and that is what you once were.” “WERE” He did not say “That is what you are, but now you are chaste.”
K
Kliska
Guest
It’s not that big, since (statistically), a small percentage of the population is gay and an even smaller percentage of homosexuals seek to change their orientation.
Very aware of it, though I never heard it even mentioned in the pulpit. My focus since high school was Psychology related, so that is why I’ve probably heard of it more.
K
Kliska
Guest
I’ve met a lesbian that told me she was choosing to be a lesbian, I’ve met other homosexuals that said they didn’t have a choice in attraction, I’ve met people who say everyone is bisexual, and on and on… In the end that “best” explanation I’ve read is that we need to quit with the labels we smack on people and instead concentrate on specific actions that are and are not allowed within the Christian faith, and helping people tame anxiety, depression, etc…
As to why some protestants claim that a homosexual must change orientation (and not just be celibate) IMO is that they have a belief that “the thought is as bad as the deed.” And most of the time they don’t differentiate between having an attraction and entertaining a thought. On the other hand, I also think there is definitely the wish to help homosexuals lead a fulfilled sexual existence, and that Jesus is in the business of freeing people from sin, so I don’t think there is some type of intentional nefarious purpose at all.
I personally feel we all have the same choices as free individuals trying to be chaste; we can work on being celibate, we can marry a qualifying person of the opposite sex (and conduct ourselves properly within that relationship), we can attempt to change our orientation if we have same sex attractions. In other words if a homosexual came to me asking to work on being celibate because of their religious beliefs, I’d have no problem with that. If a homosexual came to me asking to work on changing their orientation because of their religious beliefs, I’d have no problem with that. It’s their free choice. Why they are making the choices they are making would be one of the things we’d be talking about.
As to why some protestants claim that a homosexual must change orientation (and not just be celibate) IMO is that they have a belief that “the thought is as bad as the deed.” And most of the time they don’t differentiate between having an attraction and entertaining a thought. On the other hand, I also think there is definitely the wish to help homosexuals lead a fulfilled sexual existence, and that Jesus is in the business of freeing people from sin, so I don’t think there is some type of intentional nefarious purpose at all.
I personally feel we all have the same choices as free individuals trying to be chaste; we can work on being celibate, we can marry a qualifying person of the opposite sex (and conduct ourselves properly within that relationship), we can attempt to change our orientation if we have same sex attractions. In other words if a homosexual came to me asking to work on being celibate because of their religious beliefs, I’d have no problem with that. If a homosexual came to me asking to work on changing their orientation because of their religious beliefs, I’d have no problem with that. It’s their free choice. Why they are making the choices they are making would be one of the things we’d be talking about.
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
That’s what he said at the service. He became homosexual as a result of being raped.
A
abucs
Guest
I often visit a lesbian couple. One of the women suffered in an abusive heterosexual relationship and was seduced by the other (masculine) woman soon after.
Both are very good people.
The first (feminine) woman has shown sexual interest in myself and after talking extensively with her my opinion is that she has become lesbian due to circumstance and could very easily live a heterosexual lifestyle if circumstances changed.
In affect she became lesbian by participating in a lesbian lifestyle.
There is no doubt about this.
Both are very good people.
The first (feminine) woman has shown sexual interest in myself and after talking extensively with her my opinion is that she has become lesbian due to circumstance and could very easily live a heterosexual lifestyle if circumstances changed.
In affect she became lesbian by participating in a lesbian lifestyle.
There is no doubt about this.
T
Thorolfr
Guest
Did she become a lesbian or has she just been bisexual all along? The B in LGBT stands for bisexual and some people really are attracted to both sexes when their sexuality first develops.
R
Rosebud77
Guest
I know a similar person. She was badly abused by a violent husband and turned to women for affection and lived that lifestyle fully even buying a house with the woman. Then she saw what this was, and asked me to help her break away as she knew my faith and that the church ( anglican then) said it was wrong. She lost her job doing this and started an Alpha course… lost touch then. But she was not gay just abused
A
abucs
Guest
Yes it sounds very similar. Of course we are not stipulating that this is the case for everyone in a gay relationship, i just wish that there would be more honesty in talking about the people who are clearly heterosexual who end up in homosexual relationships due to environmental circumstances.
If this was admitted then it would be a very understandable and accepted process to tolerate those wishing to orient their family and community in a direction the overwhelming majority of the population would prefer.
Instead this is shouted down as bigotry and narrow minded discrimination which causes needless division and the polarisation and denigration of citizens.
But then this seems to be the end point of the religion of political correctness. My :twocents:
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
I haven’t read or heard a Catholic suggested that sexual orientation can never be changed through prayer. For perspective, we should consider how often prayers are answered miraculously and also the the inference that if orientation doesn’t change that the person hasn’t prayed enough. I think that is what some are getting at even if it’s not spelled out (like I’m trying to here).The same person who would be devastated if someone suggested that a loved one died of a disease because someone didn’t have enough faith or prayed hard enough might suggest that of a person who is LGBTQ didn’t have faith or didn’t pray hard enough (read: want it enough.)
T
TOmNossor
Guest
If I believed that the Pope was the Vicar of Christ AND I believed that I was called to be a married father. I would pursue this.
If we were in bizarre world:
youtube.com/watch?v=3ROXTFfkcfo
and the Pope was named Jane. And I believed. And I feel PRECISELY as I do about homosexual sex, I would marry a man and try.
In today’s world I know these things:
So you asked about “straight people.” I am not straight. I am not gay.
I am not a heterosexual, I am not a homosexual, I am a child of God.
With God’s grace, my sexual desires will not rule me. I do not have indiscriminate sex because I believe such is wrong and HARMFUL. I think the theological arguments for this truth are formidable, but in our sexualized culture they are ignored. I think the evolutional arguments for this truth are formidable, but in our sexualized culture they are ignored.
We tell the agoraphobic that they will be happier if they do that which is uncomfortable for them and leave the house to interact with the rest of the human race. Why do we treat folks sexual desires as they are beyond correction and would never dream of telling them to be uncomfortable because happiness is found in God’s way (or the evolutionarily developed way).
No, in a culture that uses sex for entertainment, selling of products, and numerous other things it was never meant for; we cannot make an argument against homosexual sex and thus we generally do not.
I believe that if right thinking people could travel back 100 years and re-align our culture concerning sex, there might still be people with same sex attraction today. In this new culture, we would not demonize folks with same sex attractions or agoraphobia or autism or …. But, they would find greater happiness in denying themselves the fulfillment of these desires. Today, I do not know what to advocate for the person with same sex attractions. They live in the same sexualized culture I live in and they have volumes of folks telling them to act upon their same sex attraction. I will be clear that homosexual relations are not in alignment with God’s will, but I am not sure what prescription to offer that would help.
Charity, TOm
T
TOmNossor
Guest
That is much of what I said in MANY more words.
Charity, TOm
P
Peter_J
Guest
Which is all well and good, if that’s his or her choice. The problem, I believe, is when some Evangelicals push someone to go in for conversion therapy.
P
Peter_J
Guest
I think some hard-core “gay activists” might be offended if they knew you were praying for them to become straight … but hopefully they wouldn’t deny your right to do so, (Well, unless you were kneeling in their driveway or something.)
P
Peter_J
Guest
I completely agree, abucs: it would be inaccurate to think that *every *case is like the person that you described, and it would also be inaccurate to think that never happens.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
The reference wasn’t about praying for someone else but praying for oneself, and perhaps accepting prayers one has asked for from their faith community. And my post was about someone falling short of expectations. And no one can deny one’s right to talk to God about something in the silence of one’s heart. I try to put God’s will, before mine or anyone else’s, in both word and intent.
I can understand why they would be offended, only because a few times when people have told me what they prayed for it seemed to served them more than it did me or another person prayed for, and and didn’t seem to have God’s will in mind at all. It’s not about the will of God, or salvation but more about agreeing with the individual praying or witnessing or whatever. I will fervently ask God for something but the prayer is always framed with “Thy will be done.” When I think about complete strangers “praying the gay away” it brings to mind people who are merciless and judgmental. I worry they are the kind who suggest things like a person didn’t have enough faith.
K
Kliska
Guest
Right, choice is very important.
The problems are manifold in the mental health field with someone being pushed to it against their will, and also (on the flip side) mental health professionals not allowed to try to help someone who is requesting conversion therapy to give it a try, add in the idea of someone underage and their parents and everyone’s intentions and wishes… it’s an extremely complicated situation now. And that’s just on the mental health side, add in the spiritual and moral questions, and it just grows…
- Status