The ex-gay next door

[Peter_J]

Right, choice is very important.

The problems are manifold in the mental health field with someone being pushed to it against their will, and also (on the flip side) mental health professionals not allowed to try to help someone who is requesting conversion therapy to give it a try, add in the idea of someone underage and their parents and everyone’s intentions and wishes… it’s an extremely complicated situation now. And that’s just on the mental health side, add in the spiritual and moral questions, and it just grows…

Could you expand on that? Why would mental health professionals not be allowed to treat an adult who requests treatment?

 

[alwayswill]

Perhaps because I’m a life-long Catholic, I was never really aware of the “ex-gay” movement being very large. (The Catholic Church encourages gay people to be celibate, not to undergo “conversion therapy”.) But just recently it has come to my attention that it just might be a significantly larger movement than I thought, particular among Evangelicals.

My questions, for Protestant brothers and sisters:
(1) How large is the ex-gay movement, to the best of your knowledge?
(2) Growing up Protestant, how aware of it were you? For example, was it something that you heard mentioned in sermons, on occasion?

yes :

harvestusa.org/

we support them : and they speak at our church

 

[Jerusha]

There are cases where the individual is more bisexual than gay-- in fact, I believe that having the potential for being attracted to both genders is normal.

Hurt from the opposite gender.

Interests which are not gender stereotypical, leading to social pressure based on presumed sexual attraction.

Physical appearance which is not gender stereotypical, leading to he above.

History of sexual abuse, or presumed history of sexual abuse, leading to the above.

History of incarceration, again related to sexual abuse as an adult.

Being caught in a culture of homophobic and heterophobic polarization, rather than taking the Catholic choice and saying, if single, “I am celibate, and my sexual feelings are my own business.”

The whole issue is over-sexualized American culture.

Each person is an individual, and each above-stated condition is amenable to therapy. But once those cultural issues are resolved, it boils down to helping the individual manage his or her sexual feelings in a way that conforms to his or her conscience.

So long as others respect my sexual lifestyle choice (celibate due to excessive hurt from men), their sexual behavior is their own business. I have no right to infer about a person’s sexual behavior in private, based on their public behavior.

 

[Kliska]

Could you expand on that? Why would mental health professionals not be allowed to treat an adult who requests treatment?

Because of pressure from secular sources that do not believe conversion therapy/Reparative therapy etc… is ever called for, in fact any stance that isn’t complete acceptance of (what we consider to be) immoral actions are usually frowned upon in professional circles. The call to disallow it completely has already started. It has started with several states that have banned it for those younger than 18, even when there is parental consent or the minor requests it.

The problem of course isn’t that narrow, nor does it stop there. When licensing agencies have the power to strip the licenses of practicing professionals if they don’t tow the line on moral issues we’re heading toward a problem. If a licensed counselor thinks, in their professional opinion, that certain behaviours such as homosexual sex, or physically transitioning from one sex to another, or abortion will psychologically harm a client, they should be able to try to help them. One can see where it becomes much more complex in the case of children and when it gets beyond something like same sex attraction (surgical transitioning for example).

 

[exnihilo]

If gay people can be changed from gay to straight than it is possible to be changed from straight to gay.

So I ask straight people here, do you think it is possible to change your orientation?

Speaking as a straight, I do not think I can change from straight to gay.

The whole notion of ‘orientation’ was created to justify homosexuality. It presents specific sexual desire, in this case homosexual acts, as something from which one can not escape. If we consider heterosexual attraction to be natural and homosexual attraction to be disordered then of course ‘straights’ can be made ‘gay’. In fact that is what happens when anyone embraces homosexuality.

There may be people strongly predisposed to develop homosexual attraction whether by environment or birth. But that doesn’t mean that it is impossible to correct that disorder. I can’t think of any other disorder, save the related transgenderism, where we say people are beyond relief.

The idea that you can’t make a homosexual lose his attractions stands against the notion of being able to possibly control our appetites through virtue. I think sexual appetites for many people are very hard to control. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be. Most ex smokers I met had a really strong attraction to smoking for several years after they quit. But almost all have eventually come to actually hate smoking and have no desire to do it.

 

[Peter_J]

Because of pressure from secular sources that do not believe conversion therapy/Reparative therapy etc… is ever called for, in fact any stance that isn’t complete acceptance of (what we consider to be) immoral actions are usually frowned upon in professional circles. The call to disallow it completely has already started. It has started with several states that have banned it for those younger than 18, even when there is parental consent or the minor requests it.

The problem of course isn’t that narrow, nor does it stop there. When licensing agencies have the power to strip the licenses of practicing professionals if they don’t tow the line on moral issues we’re heading toward a problem. If a licensed counselor thinks, in their professional opinion, that certain behaviours such as homosexual sex, or physically transitioning from one sex to another, or abortion will psychologically harm a client, they should be able to try to help them. One can see where it becomes much more complex in the case of children and when it gets beyond something like same sex attraction (surgical transitioning for example).

Indeed, the pendulum often swings from one extreme to another. Heck, even within one single time period, extremists will often try to justify (if you can call it that) their views by talking about the extremists on the opposite side.

In any case, I agree that it is much more complex in the case of teenagers. But if a teenager is so eager for heterosexuality that he/she cannot wait till age 18 to undergo conversion therapy, I would certainly hope that an adult would step in as a voice of calm and patience – not to mention saying something about the value of abstinence.

 

[Kliska]

Indeed, the pendulum often swings from one extreme to another. Heck, even within one single time period, extremists will often try to justify (if you can call it that) their views by talking about the extremists on the opposite side.

In any case, I agree that it is much more complex in the case of teenagers. But if a teenager is so eager for heterosexuality that he/she cannot wait till age 18 to undergo conversion therapy, I would certainly hope that an adult would step in as a voice of calm and patience – not to mention saying something about the value of abstinence.

I agree, and I know this thread wasn’t about this aspect, but what I think scares/bothers me the most is the willingness of some Medical Doctors and Surgeons to do physical transition steps on children who are claiming that they want to transition…

Ugh. It’s all a black pit, I pray for us all and our societies.

 

[ltwin]

If gay people can be changed from gay to straight than it is possible to be changed from straight to gay.

So I ask straight people here, do you think it is possible to change your orientation?

Speaking as a straight, I do not think I can change from straight to gay.

Actually, psychologists are beginning to acknowledge that sexual orientation, especially homosexual orientation, is fluid, not static.

In the APA Handbook, Dr. Diamond states, “Hence, directly contrary to the conventional wisdom that individuals with exclusive same-sex attractions represent the prototypical ‘type’ of sexual-minority individual, and that those with bisexual patterns of attraction are infrequent exceptions, the opposite is true. Individuals with nonexclusive patterns of attraction are indisputably the ‘norm,’ and those with exclusive same-sex attractions are the exception” (v. 1, p. 633). Most people who experience same-sex attraction also already experience opposite-sex attraction.

This would suggest that therapy or some other form of intervention could assist people to alter or suppress unwanted attraction.

 

[Thorolfr]

Actually, psychologists are beginning to acknowledge that sexual orientation, especially homosexual orientation, is fluid, not static.

In the APA Handbook, Dr. Diamond states, “Hence, directly contrary to the conventional wisdom that individuals with exclusive same-sex attractions represent the prototypical ‘type’ of sexual-minority individual, and that those with bisexual patterns of attraction are infrequent exceptions, the opposite is true. Individuals with nonexclusive patterns of attraction are indisputably the ‘norm,’ and those with exclusive same-sex attractions are the exception” (v. 1, p. 633). Most people who experience same-sex attraction also already experience opposite-sex attraction.

So does that also mean that most people who experience opposite-sex attraction also already experience same-sex attraction? Also, even if everyone’s sexuality falls along a spectrum, this does not mean that everyone who falls at one far side of the spectrum or the other can change this.

 

[ltwin]

So does that also mean that most people who experience opposite-sex attraction also already experience same-sex attraction?

Probably not. Dr. Lisa Diamond is the American Psychological Association (APA) researcher who is studying this, and she’s also a lesbian activist. What she told other LGBT activists is this:

Dr. Diamond tells LGBT activists near the end of her YouTube lecture, “I feel as a community, the queers have to stop saying, ‘Please help us. We’re born this way, and we can’t change’ as an argument for legal standing. I don’t think we need that argument, and that argument is going to bite us in the ***, because now we know that there’s enough data out there, that the other side is aware of as much as we are aware of it.” In other words, Dr. Diamond says, “Stop saying ‘born that way and can’t change’ for political purposes, because the other side knows it’s not true as much as we do.”

 

[Peter_J]

Actually, psychologists are beginning to acknowledge that sexual orientation, especially homosexual orientation, is fluid, not static.

I think the tendency to see people in black-and-white, gay or straight, terms is another example of the pendulum swinging to the opposite extreme of where is used to be.

 

[Peter_J]

Probably not. Dr. Lisa Diamond is the American Psychological Association (APA) researcher who is studying this, and she’s also a lesbian activist. What she told other LGBT activists is this:

Dr. Diamond tells LGBT activists near the end of her YouTube lecture, “I feel as a community, the queers have to stop saying, ‘Please help us. We’re born this way, and we can’t change’ as an argument for legal standing. I don’t think we need that argument, and that argument is going to bite us in the ***, because now we know that there’s enough data out there, that the other side is aware of as much as we are aware of it.” In other words, Dr. Diamond says, “Stop saying ‘born that way and can’t change’ for political purposes, because the other side knows it’s not true as much as we do.”

Admittedly I don’t know Dr. Diamond beyond what you posted; but if she’s a “lesbian activist” I’m not sure I would trust what she declares – or, at least, I would read it with an eye for bias.

 

[Peter_J]

I pray for us all and our societies.

But I’m also coming to believe that a lot more Christians – not just homosexual Christians but heterosexual Christians as well – ought to try to become informed about “ex-gay” therapy, given how widespread it is and how (arguably?) harmful it can be to our homosexual children/siblings/neighbors/friends/brethren/countrymen. (Sorry if that last one was sexist. )

 

[benjohnson]

to try to become informed about “ex-gay” therapy, given how widespread it is and how (arguably?) harmful it can be to our homosexual children/siblings/neighbors/friends/brethren/countrymen. (Sorry if that last one was sexist. )

I’m not sure I agree it’s harmful to all that struggle with same-sex attraction - some people are more on the fence and just need a kick in the right direction.

Having a family is a powerful bonus to being heterosexual, and I’m not sure we can entirely remove the means that some have found to heal themselves.

 

[AnimaQuaerenti]

It’s seems like some Evangelicals are saying a person’s orientation can always be changed through prayer, while some Catholics seem to be saying that a person’s orientation can never be changed through prayer.

CCC 2834: “Pray as if everything depended on God and work as if everything depended on you.”

The Catholic church doesn’t see same-sex attraction as sinful, only the act of homosexuality. As such, I see the road taken by Catholics as being the “sensible middle alternative” between anything-goes on one end and pray-the-gay-away on the other.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m not sure I agree it’s harmful to all that struggle with same-sex attraction - some people are more on the fence and just need a kick in the right direction.

Having a family is a powerful bonus to being heterosexual, and I’m not sure we can entirely remove the means that some have found to heal themselves.

Well keep in mind that I said can be.

But having said that … if I were advising someone who’s bisexual, I would not push for Conversion Therapy, to give him/her a “kick in the right direction”. I would suggest traditional therapy/counseling (whatever Psychoanalysis, Gestalt Therapy, Cognitive Therapy, Existential Therapy, etc etc.) but just with a particular focus on resolving issues relating to sexuality.

 

[rcwitness]

That particular topic was never actually a topic we discussed in Sunday School growing up. There was a time when one of my teachers jokingly referred to Michael Jackson as Michelle Jackson, but that was all.

Do you really think it’s taught in Catholic children formation? The first principle rule, for those in high school age, is celebacy outside of marriage. The Church does not marry same sex couples, so it necessarily follows that there is absolute celebacy and abstinence for same sex couples.

I’m not sure it is an appropriate topic for general class. But I’m not against some sort of avenue for those with these tendencies and attractions.

 

[rcwitness]

CCC 2834: “Pray as if everything depended on God and work as if everything depended on you.”

The Catholic church doesn’t see same-sex attraction as sinful, only the act of homosexuality. As such, I see the road taken by Catholics as being the “sensible middle alternative” between anything-goes on one end and pray-the-gay-away on the other.

I agree. God may supernaturally intervene, but I think normally, we are left to struggle against temtations, orientations of the flesh.

 

[Reepicheep]

Straight guys go into prison and come out homosexual or bisexual. So yes, it’s possible to change it but not likely, imo.

I agree with Fr. Corapi’s opinion that if you only have same sex attraction then unfortunately, you are called to celibacy. Hard is that is to accept

It’s easier to break what’s whole than to repair what’s broken.

 

[Reepicheep]

(snipped).

Went to a service one time where he told us what happened to him. He was raped by a older family member and became a homosexual from a young age…battled it and eventually became straight.

You make it sound as if there is some causal link between getting raped and becoming a homosexual. Not all gay people were raped or suffered some sort of sexual trauma as a child.

“John and Thomas and Bill and Barry became A-students in high school by taking a course in speed-reading” does not equal “The only possible way to become A-students is through speed-reading.”

“John and Thomas and Bill and Barry became gay because they were raped when they were young” Does Not Equal “The only possible way to become gay is through rape.”