The EXACT teaching on original sin and the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady

[Nine_Two]

I’m actually fine with that point of view if that is how the West sees sin. Remember that the East sees sin as a disease as well. The only problem for me is how complicated Original Sin made the Immaculate Conception with Mary being exempted from it. So there arises a lot of questions. One on the top of my mind is does the exemption from Original Sin made Mary a new creation, like Adam and Eve. If so, how is the humanity of Jesus Christ connected to our own humanity? Remember, Jesus is both Son of God and Son of Man (Adam). Being excused from that thing you inherit from Adam would suggest that you are not a descendant of Adam.

The disease metaphor is only used so far. It isn’t seen as something you “catch” from you parents like that.

But yes, the issue you raise is one I have with the concept as well.

 

[Vico]

Per the Gospel of Luke 1:28, Our Lady was born in a perfected state of charis.

Chaire kecharitōmenē

Verb: Perfect Passive Participle Vocative Singular Feminine

Ke means perfect tense.

Mene means passive participle.

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 1:28 Stephens Textus Receptus (1550) - Transliterated

kai eiselthōn o angelos pros autēn eipen chaire kecharitōmenē o kurios meta sou eulogēmenē su en gunaixin

Generally it means “you are now in a blessed state which has resulted from being blessed in the past”.

Hail, highly favored, which thou hast received!

In the classic Greek meaning, Charis is a reciprocal relationship between someone and a god.

 

[Mort_Alz]

In a way, I suppose. The beef that many have with the Immaculate Conception isn’t that it teaches that Mary is sinless and special. Rather, they see it as stemming from a misunderstanding of Original Sin, such that it elevates Mary to something more than human. As one person aptly told me, “It makes Mary the great exception, not the great example.”

But I’ll shut my mouth, as I’m not really contributing to the conversation (for that, I apologize). I’ll just sit back and see what happens.

Yes, those are exactly the complications that arise in my mind with the IC. Nobody has been able to reconcile them even after numerous google searches.

 

[Mort_Alz]

I’m actually fine with that point of view if that is how the West sees sin. Remember that the East sees sin as a disease as well. The only problem for me is how complicated Original Sin made the Immaculate Conception with Mary being exempted from it. So there arises a lot of questions. One on the top of my mind is does the exemption from Original Sin made Mary a new creation, like Adam and Eve. If so, how is the humanity of Jesus Christ connected to our own humanity? Remember, Jesus is both Son of God and Son of Man (Adam). Being excused from that thing you inherit from Adam would suggest that you are not a descendant of Adam.

These are my sympathies as well. Again, I have yet to be able to reconcile these things.

 

[Nine_Two]

Per the Gospel of Luke 1:28, Our Lady was born in a perfected state of charis.

Chaire kecharitōmenē

Verb: Perfect Passive Participle Vocative Singular Feminine

Ke means perfect tense.

Mene means passive participle.

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 1:28 Stephens Textus Receptus (1550) - Transliterated

kai eiselthōn o angelos pros autēn eipen chaire kecharitōmenē o kurios meta sou eulogēmenē su en gunaixin

Generally it means “you are now in a blessed state which has resulted from being blessed in the past”.

Hail, highly favored, which thou hast received!

In the classic Greek meaning, Charis is a reciprocal relationship between someone and a god.

Past perfect means something which is completed, not that it existed from the beginning.

The word also doesn’t mean immaculate.

 

[jlhargus]

mark

 

[jlhargus]

I don’t mean it’s necessity to be dogmatically pronounced, but that, if it happened, what was it’s purpose? Was it necessary?

JL: It’s prupose to provide a sanctified vessel for the PRESENCE of God. Which tells us this child IS GOD who’s presents cannot dwell in an unholy vessel. It’s necessity was because Mary the NT Ark was were the PRESENCE of God met with His people. Therefore that vessel had to be sanctified and holy. Just as the OT Ark where the PRESENTS of God met with His people had to be sanctified and holy. Also the same with Christians. The Holy Spirit is not PRESENT in an unholy person, but only one that has FIRST been sanctified made holy.

[Ezek 44:1 Then THE MAN BROUGHT ME BACK TO THE OUTER GATE of the sanctuary, THE ONE FACING EAST, and IT WAS SHUT. 2 **THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUTH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT.

When it is replied that it was necessary because Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant made pure to carry the Son of God in her womb, the next objection is that this notion shatters the idea of her free will or turns her into a passive vessel. The emphasis of her free will “yes” is diminished. The problem with this justification of the IC is that it almost promotes the idea of a very Calvinistic/Western understanding of Predestination and the Sovereignty of God. The objection is that it does away with Mary’s free will. If she was conceived without original sin when the rest of us are born with it, then God would not allow it to happen that she would say “no.” If she did, He would have to create other people immaculately conceived until one of them said “yes.” Do you see the problem we run into here? Now, Westerners uphold both the IC and Mary’s free will, but the above scenario seems to indicate that there is a tension between the two.

JL: God is never taken by surprise He knew YOU before you were born and what you will do with your life. Does that mean you have no free will? The past, present and future are present to God. He sees and knows how one will FREELY respond to His grace He doesn’t force them by that grace. I don’t understand your position that an ALL KNOWING GOD makes free will impossible? Don’t ALL Christian’s know in the end God wins and Satan is defeated. How does that do away with our free will?

Another objection to the Immaculate Conception is that if God could create Mary without original sin in St. Anne's womb (who had original sin), then couldn't He just have done the same thing with Christ?

JL: Christ, the Word, was God. God doesn’t dwell in an unclean vessel that’s why BOTH Arks had to be sanctified. That’s why when a Christian commits a mortal sin the presents of the Holy Spirit departs from that vessel. Original sin is a LACK not an actual sin. What we LACK when born is the indwelling of God’s presence in our vessel (soul).

[John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. We are not naturally born with eternal life, that which is born of flesh is flesh, we are not born with the Holy Spirit in us. That’s why we baptise infants, to restore supernatural life to the soul.]

Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB. Lk1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth HEARD THE SALUTATION OF MARY, THE BABE LEAPED IN HER WOMB; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible. The immaculate conception is not a great leap of faith at all. God’s presents will not indwell unclean vessels.

Why must Mary be conceived immaculately? If this is a reflection of the West’s understanding of original sin, then we run into all kinds of problems. I have heard it stated that the Immaculate Conception only gave Mary from the moment of her conception the same Sanctifying Grace that we receive at baptism. If that is the case, then doesn’t that mean children born of two baptized Christian parents are automatically free from original sin?

JL: No, but It does make them clean or holy an acceptable vessel for God’s presents thru baptism. Children are born innocent, but some children are UCLEAN. It is the faith of a believing parent that makes an infant clean, and acceptable for baptism, otherwise they are UNCLEAN.

[1Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. **OTHERWISE your CHILDREN would be UNCLEAN, but as it is, they are holy].

ORIGINAL SIN catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0509fea4sb2.asp Adam and Eve lived in a state of “original justice”: the state of integrity wherein their whole beings were ordered to the will of God. With the fall, man has been deprived of the gifts our first parents enjoyed. These gifts are commonly called the “preternatural and supernatural gifts.”

With baptism, only the supernatural gifts are restored. The preternatural gifts, lost in the fall, are: infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and freedom from death and sickness.
The supernatural gifts, restored in baptism, are: indwelling of God in our souls through grace, and the theological virtues (faith, hope, and charity).

 

[Mort_Alz]

JL: It’s prupose to provide a sanctified vessel for the PRESENCE of God. Which tells us this child IS GOD who’s presents cannot dwell in an unholy vessel. It’s necessity was because Mary the NT Ark was were the PRESENCE of God met with His people. Therefore that vessel had to be sanctified and holy. Just as the OT Ark where the PRESENTS of God met with His people had to be sanctified and holy. Also the same with Christians. The Holy Spirit is not PRESENT in an unholy person, but only one that has FIRST been sanctified made holy.

[Ezek 44:1 Then THE MAN BROUGHT ME BACK TO THE OUTER GATE of the sanctuary, THE ONE FACING EAST, and IT WAS SHUT. 2 **THE LORD SAID

to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUTH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT.

This is an enlightening answer. Thank you for this. I will read it over and give some time to digest it and then get back to you if I have questions.

JL: God is never taken by surprise He knew YOU before you were born and what you will do with your life. Does that mean you have no free will? The past, present and future are present to God. He sees and knows how one will FREELY respond to His grace He doesn’t force them by that grace. I don’t understand your position that an ALL KNOWING GOD makes free will impossible? Don’t ALL Christian’s know in the end God wins and Satan is defeated. How does that do away with our free will?

JL: Christ, the Word, was God. God doesn’t dwell in an unclean vessel that’s why BOTH Arks had to be sanctified. That’s why when a Christian commits a mortal sin the presents of the Holy Spirit departs from that vessel. Original sin is a LACK not an actual sin. What we LACK when born is the indwelling of God’s presence in our vessel (soul).

[John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. We are not naturally born with eternal life, that which is born of flesh is flesh, we are not born with the Holy Spirit in us. That’s why we baptise infants, to restore supernatural life to the soul.]

Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB. Lk1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth HEARD THE SALUTATION OF MARY, THE BABE LEAPED IN HER WOMB; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible. The immaculate conception is not a great leap of faith at all. God’s presents will not indwell unclean vessels.

JL: No, but It does make them clean or holy an acceptable vessel for God’s presents thru baptism. Children are born innocent, but some children are UCLEAN. It is the faith of a believing parent that makes an infant clean, and acceptable for baptism, otherwise they are UNCLEAN.

[1Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. **OTHERWISE your CHILDREN would be UNCLEAN, but as it is, they are holy].

ORIGINAL SIN catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0509fea4sb2.asp Adam and Eve lived in a state of “original justice”: the state of integrity wherein their whole beings were ordered to the will of God. With the fall, man has been deprived of the gifts our first parents enjoyed. These gifts are commonly called the “preternatural and supernatural gifts.”

With baptism, only the supernatural gifts are restored. The preternatural gifts, lost in the fall, are: infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and freedom from death and sickness.
The supernatural gifts, restored in baptism, are: indwelling of God in our souls through grace, and the theological virtues (faith, hope, and charity).

 

[Mort_Alz]

JL: It’s prupose to provide a sanctified vessel for the PRESENCE of God. Which tells us this child IS GOD who’s presents cannot dwell in an unholy vessel. It’s necessity was because Mary the NT Ark was were the PRESENCE of God met with His people. Therefore that vessel had to be sanctified and holy. Just as the OT Ark where the PRESENTS of God met with His people had to be sanctified and holy. Also the same with Christians. The Holy Spirit is not PRESENT in an unholy person, but only one that has FIRST been sanctified made holy.

[Ezek 44:1 Then THE MAN BROUGHT ME BACK TO THE OUTER GATE of the sanctuary, THE ONE FACING EAST, and IT WAS SHUT. 2 **THE LORD SAID

to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUTH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT.

JL: God is never taken by surprise He knew YOU before you were born and what you will do with your life. Does that mean you have no free will? The past, present and future are present to God. He sees and knows how one will FREELY respond to His grace He doesn’t force them by that grace. I don’t understand your position that an ALL KNOWING GOD makes free will impossible? Don’t ALL Christian’s know in the end God wins and Satan is defeated. How does that do away with our free will?

JL: Christ, the Word, was God. God doesn’t dwell in an unclean vessel that’s why BOTH Arks had to be sanctified. That’s why when a Christian commits a mortal sin the presents of the Holy Spirit departs from that vessel. Original sin is a LACK not an actual sin. What we LACK when born is the indwelling of God’s presence in our vessel (soul).

[John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. We are not naturally born with eternal life, that which is born of flesh is flesh, we are not born with the Holy Spirit in us. That’s why we baptise infants, to restore supernatural life to the soul.]

Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB. Lk1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth HEARD THE SALUTATION OF MARY, THE BABE LEAPED IN HER WOMB; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible. The immaculate conception is not a great leap of faith at all. God’s presents will not indwell unclean vessels.

JL: No, but It does make them clean or holy an acceptable vessel for God’s presents thru baptism. Children are born innocent, but some children are UCLEAN. It is the faith of a believing parent that makes an infant clean, and acceptable for baptism, otherwise they are UNCLEAN.

[1Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. **OTHERWISE your CHILDREN would be UNCLEAN, but as it is, they are holy].

ORIGINAL SIN catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0509fea4sb2.asp Adam and Eve lived in a state of “original justice”: the state of integrity wherein their whole beings were ordered to the will of God. With the fall, man has been deprived of the gifts our first parents enjoyed. These gifts are commonly called the “preternatural and supernatural gifts.”

With baptism, only the supernatural gifts are restored. The preternatural gifts, lost in the fall, are: infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and freedom from death and sickness.
The supernatural gifts, restored in baptism, are: indwelling of God in our souls through grace, and the theological virtues (faith, hope, and charity).

This is an enlightening answer. Thank you for this. I need some time to digest though, so I will read it slowly and get back to you if I have questions.

 

[jlhargus]

I’m actually fine with that point of view if that is how the West sees sin. Remember that the East sees sin as a disease as well. The only problem for me is how complicated Original Sin made the Immaculate Conception with Mary being exempted from it. So there arises a lot of questions. One on the top of my mind is does the exemption from Original Sin made Mary a new creation, like Adam and Eve. If so, how is the humanity of Jesus Christ connected to our own humanity? Remember, Jesus is both Son of God and Son of Man (Adam). Being excused from that thing you inherit from Adam would suggest that you are not a descendant of Adam.

JL: We all become a new creation when BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit in baptism.

2Cor5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Adam and Eve were still human beings when they were in the garden and after the fall. In the fall they lost those supernatural gifts God had intended for all men.

 

[jlhargus]

This is an enlightening answer. Thank you for this. I need some time to digest though, so I will read it slowly and get back to you if I have questions.

JL: Thanks Morts I hope and pray it will help you.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Mort Alz: your OP is “fully loaded” and asks about two of the favorites, so to speak, in the ongoing debate about East/West theological differences.

I for one see little difference in reality between the views on East and West on both of these subjects. Rather, they are explained differently based on the point of view, and based on ingrained preferences and / or tendencies as to how one understands these mysteries of faith.

Simply put, the special position of Mary the Theotokos was always accepted in Eastern though and tradition. We understand almost innately that for her to have borne God Incarnate, she must have been pure and free from sin - it could be no other way. Yet we also know that Mary was mortal and like all Mankind required the grace of God and eternal salvation, irrespective of her sinlessness. When Gabriel appeared to her, his first words confirmed her purity: “Hail Mary! Full of Grace! The Lord is with you!” For a number of reasons, some of which were temporal, the West found it necessary to proclaim the Immaculate Conception dogmatically, affirming that Mary received the grace of the Holy Spirit from conception. In the East, the intervention of the Holy Spirit in Mary’s conception was clear from Scriptural account and the early teachings of the Church.

Orthodox often refer to “original sin” as “ancestral sin”. Simply put, we are born into a state that is quite different than God had originally intended when Adam and Eve were created, as a consequence of the Fall of Man. We thus no longer automatically share in God’s grace. We have both free will and the knowledge of sin as a result of the Fall, although we are not directly guilty of that particular sin - it is Adam’s and Eve’s alone. We are however now capable of sin, and must actively seek God’s grace. This is the first step in our lifelong journey of Theosis, to become more like God and restore ourselves to our original state in Creation. So for us Easterners, this quest begins with Baptism and never really ends.

 

[Vico]

Past perfect means something which is completed, not that it existed from the beginning.

The word also doesn’t mean immaculate.

True. I am showing that the Gospel is not inconsistent with the dogma. However, it is not the proof of the dogma, and not intended to be.