The existence of an Absolute Intelligent First Cause has been proven to exist with absolute metaphysical certainty. So why are people still atheists?

[rossum]

Don’t you believe in evolution? If you do, then you believe that human intelligence is caused. Why are you now asking for proof?

Believe? Not really. I accept evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on earth that science has come up with so far.

I was responding to @IWantGod, who says that there is at least one uncaused intelligence in the universe. I was asking for his evidence that there is only one uncaused intelligence rather than many uncaused intelligences. If even one intelligence is uncaused, then we cannot assume that all other intelligences we find are necessarily caused.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Science discovered the codified language of the body. They call it “dna”. Science says that this codified language exists in every living thing.

In almost every living thing. Some viruses use RNA instead of DNA.

No, DNA is not a “codified language”; that is a metaphor used to describe DNA. Do not confuse the metaphor with the thing being described. DNA is a chemical. mRNA is another chemical. tRNA is another chemical and the resulting enzyme is yet another chemical. These reactions can take place in a test tube as well as in a living cell.

rossum

 

[IWantGod]

Therefore, if there is a codified language in the body and that has been proven by science beyond a shadow of a doubt, then there must have been a supernatural intelligence that put it there. There can be no other explanation.

While i wouldn’t call this “scientific evidence” of an intelligent designer (since DNA is simply acting according to its inherent nature and in that respect is a natural event), i do think the existence of DNA provides us with a decent philosophical argument for the existence of an intelligent first cause. In fact DNA would provide a good example for Aquinas’ fifth way and had he been alive today i am confident that he would have pointed to DNA as evidence of teleology in nature - Goal Direction. Goal direction does not make sense without an intelligent first cause.

One has to ask, given a strictly materialistic view of reality, why a physical process would exist that acts towards the self development of a holistic system that responds to its environment and duplicates that system. Philosophically speaking materialists in principle have no answer for goal direction in nature and are simply left with a brute fact much like the laws of physics in general; its a just so story which is ultimately what you are left with when arguing for metaphysical naturalism. Since physical activity is blind of its natural end, the only sufficient explanation for the existence of goal directed behavior is the existence of an intelligent first cause.

 

[De_Maria]

In almost every living thing. Some viruses use RNA instead of DNA.

You’re splitting hairs. RNA is another language which exists in nature. Only a supernatural intelligence could have put it there.

No, DNA is not a “codified language”; that is a metaphor used to describe DNA. Do not confuse the metaphor with the thing being described.

And yet, the chemical sends messages and gives instructions.

DNA is a chemical. mRNA is another chemical. tRNA is another chemical and the resulting enzyme is yet another chemical. These reactions can take place in a test tube as well as in a living cell.

Which simply proves the power of the languages. And by inference, the power of the Intelligence which created them.

 

[IWantGod]

What if I ascribe that attribute to the Universe itself? You know, apply a bit of parsimony (Occam’s razor), get rid of the complicating entities, and just decide the universe’s nature is to exist, and that existence isn’t contingent on another entity.

The universe exists (physical reality). So the question is, is the universe necessarily actual?

The universe is changing, its parts are constantly in a state of becoming. New forms become actual whereas before they were only potential. The universe is a sequence of potential states. The universe has emergent properties non of which are necessarily actual and yet they are a part of what the universe is. If physical reality was necessarily actual it would not have emergent properties or new forms or new states of being. This is to say it would not be in any respect potentially actual, but rather everything that it is or could possibly be would be fully actual from all eternity. There would be no evolution of forms because they would all be actual - necessarily real…

Thus the universe (physical reality) cannot be considered to be a necessarily actual being or collection of beings.

Therefore that which is necessarily actual is not that which is changing or a process. It is not the Universe.

Therefore the universe does not exist because of its own nature, because if it did it would be pure actuality - having no emergent properties or potential parts or forms. Therefore it exists because of some other nature.
A thing either has the reason for its actuality in its own nature or it is contingent upon the actuality of another nature distinct from itself for its existence. Therefore the universe (physical reality) and anything that is not necessary is contingent on the existence of a being that exists because of its own nature - its nature is to exist.

 

[rossum]

And yet, the chemical sends messages and gives instructions.

The chemical reacts with other chemicals. Your “messages” and “instructions” are metaphors used to describe the chemical reactions.

rossum

 

[De_Maria]

Believe? Not really. I accept evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on earth that science has come up with so far.

So you’re agnostic about evolution. You don’t know whether it is true. Good for you.

I was responding to @IWantGod, who says that there is at least one uncaused intelligence in the universe. I was asking for his evidence that there is only one uncaused intelligence rather than many uncaused intelligences. If even one intelligence is uncaused, then we cannot assume that all other intelligences we find are necessarily caused.

The evidence has been presented. As the saying goes. For some, no evidence is necessary. For others, no evidence is ever enough.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

And yet, the chemical sends messages and gives instructions.

The chemical reacts with other chemicals. Your “messages” and “instructions” are metaphors used to describe the chemical reactions.

rossum

They aren’t my metaphors, they are used by the scientific community because those chemicals align themselves into molecules that convey information from one part of the organism to another. And the information that they convey is so advanced, that human beings can’t reproduce them.

In other words, human intelligence pales before the intelligence that produced these messages. And these messages have been around for eons.

 

[inocente]

You: The sum of two even integers is always odd.

Never said that. You are a lier. You lie through your teeth, lier. Please stop lying through your teeth, lier.

 

[IWantGod]

Never said that. You are a lier. You lie through your teeth, lier. Please stop lying through your teeth, lier.

He was giving an example of the way you reason. He is not saying that you actually said that. I’m surprised you didn’t realize that.

 

[rossum]

So you’re agnostic about evolution. You don’t know whether it is true. Good for you.

No. I treat evolution the same way I treat any other scientific theory. Newton’s theory of gravity was accepted for a long time until it was replaced by a better theory of gravity: Einstein’s General Relativity. In its turn GR will be replaced by Quantum Gravity, which scientists are working on now.

All scientific theories are provisional; they can be replaced by a better theory at any time.

rossum

 

[inocente]

I never said that. You are lying through your teeth. Please stop lying through your teeth, you lier.

 

[IWantGod]

I never said that. You are lying through your teeth. Please stop lying through your teeth, you lier.

Are you okay? I don’t think he intended to mean that you said that. Isn’t it obvious?

 

[inocente]

No it’s not obvious. Liers are liers. He lies. He lies through his teeth.

 

[IWantGod]

No it’s not obvious. Liers are liers. He lies. He lies through his teeth.

I disagree. You have simply misunderstood. That much is obvious to me. Reason suggests that it is unlikely he would present such an obvious lie. His intentions was something different than what you are accusing him of. I would give him the benefit of the doubt if i were you. But i will leave it for him to explain since there is no reasoning with you.

You keep accusing people of Ad hominem attacks and he is showing you (through example) that your accusation is without warrant. It is very clear to me what his intentions were.

 

[inocente]

Liers are liers. He lies. He lies through his teeth.

 

[IWantGod]

You keep accusing people of Ad hominem attacks and he is showing you (through example) that your accusation is without warrant. It is very clear to me what his intentions were.

You keep accusing people of Ad hominem attacks and he is showing you (through example) that your accusation is without warrant. It is very clear to me what his intentions were. He is not lying, he is not a liar, and that will not change no-matter how much you accuse him.

I am going to stop responding to you now. You behavior is derailing the thread.

 

[niceatheist]

De_Maria:

So you’re agnostic about evolution. You don’t know whether it is true. Good for you.

No. I treat evolution the same way I treat any other scientific theory. Newton’s theory of gravity was accepted for a long time until it was replaced by a better theory of gravity: Einstein’s General Relativity. In its turn GR will be replaced by Quantum Gravity, which scientists are working on now.

All scientific theories are provisional; they can be replaced by a better theory at any time.

rossum

Newtonian Mechanics weren’t so much replaced as they were subsumed. Newton’s equations are still good enough for launching probes to Pluto and landing men on the Moon, because they do not involve relativistic velocities. And in this you see the reality of modern science. Very few theories are ever outright replaced. Generally new data and predictions will cause theories to change, just as evolution in Darwin’s day was overhauled by the Modern Synthesis as genetics was merged, and since then there has been considerable work done particularly in molecular analysis, and yet the general architecture of Darwin’s theory remains intact; biologists still accept descent with modification.

 

[IWantGod]

Moderators - it’s kind of obvious why most long term posters recently left CAF.

You are more than welcome to leave this discussion or even the forum for that matter. I am not interested in your opinion as far as this thread is concerned.

 

[HarryStotle]

inocente:

No it’s not obvious. Liers are liers. He lies. He lies through his teeth.

I disagree. You have simply misunderstood. That much is obvious to me. Reason suggests that it is unlikely he would present such an obvious lie. His intentions was something different than what you are accusing him of. I would give him the benefit of the doubt if i were you. But i will leave it for him to explain since there is no reasoning with you.

You keep accusing people of Ad hominem attacks and he is showing you (through example) that your accusation is without warrant. It is very clear to me what his intentions were.

Seemed obvious to me, too.

Fortunately, he didn’t accuse me of being a liar, that would have really upset me.

I have no idea what a “lier” is, so everything is copacetic. I am sure it was intended as a complimentary term of endearment or something.