The Existence of Objective Moral Values

  • Thread starter Thread starter Call_Me_V
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Call_Me_V

Guest
Without reference to a specific God or religion, what reason is there to believe that there are any objective moral values (objective here meaning, murder, for example, would be wrong independently of whether or not anyone thought it was wrong, etc. Objective morality rather than moral relativism) ?

P.S. I debated putting this in the moral theology forum, but I figured that the philosophy forum would be better. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Thanks in advance,
V
 
Without reference to a specific God or religion, what reason is there to believe that there are any objective moral values (objective here meaning, murder, for example, would be wrong independently of whether or not anyone thought it was wrong, etc. Objective morality rather than moral relativism) ?
The right to life is not dependent on your opinion or that of anyone else. Even if you fail to recognise it you are not justified in killing a person - unless that person is deliberately endangering another person’s life.
 
The right to life is not dependent on your opinion or that of anyone else. Even if you fail to recognise it you are not justified in killing a person - unless that person is deliberately endangering another person’s life.
But that’s what I’m saying – what reason is there to believe that we have a right to life at all?

V
 
Survival of the fittest, individual fitness, etc. etc.

If we go back to the Environment of Evolutionary Adaptiveness we would find that murder would be wrong because it would limit the genetic diversity, limit the gathering capabilities, number of mating partners, etc. etc.
 
Survival of the fittest, individual fitness, etc. etc.

If we go back to the Environment of Evolutionary Adaptiveness we would find that murder would be wrong because it would limit the genetic diversity, limit the gathering capabilities, number of mating partners, etc. etc.
That would make it detrimental to the survival of the species, certainly, but why would that make it objectively morally wrong?

V
 
Without reference to a specific God or religion, what reason is there to believe that there are any objective moral values (objective here meaning, murder, for example, would be wrong independently of whether or not anyone thought it was wrong, etc. Objective morality rather than moral relativism) ?

P.S. I debated putting this in the moral theology forum, but I figured that the philosophy forum would be better. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Thanks in advance,
V
Without God, it seems highly unlikely you can make a case for any objective moral values. Visit the numerous threads on this very issue already floating around the philosophy forum and you’ll see what I mean.

Another atheist on this forum put up a link to something Sam Harris (also an atheist, but you probably already know that)wrote about the possibility of making a case scientifically for objective values:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=443640

He uses the criteria of human happiness as a measure of whether something is a moral good or not. It has some potential as a way secular and religious people alike can attack the worst kinds of moral relativism which allow some to justify the abuse of children and women in other cultures, but runs into the same problem any concept of objective morality runs into- who/what makes the determination? If it’s a being with a mind, then it is automatically subjective. It’s more a might-makes-right issue at that point.
 
you can look at the animal kingdom and find what kind of morality they have

usually its determined by the strong ones of the species. in some species the strongest males get all the females. so there is no monogamy, there isn’t even a concept of love. the alpha male is usually concerned with passing his genes for the success of the species, but this isn’t a decision he makes, its just part of his instinct

killing is justified by their status. the strong kill the weak. if there are weak offspring, they are killed of. if the offspring looks like a threat, they are killed off
 
…but runs into the same problem any concept of objective morality runs into- who/what makes the determination? If it’s a being with a mind, then it is automatically subjective. It’s more a might-makes-right issue at that point.
I agree completely.

V
 
you can look at the animal kingdom and find what kind of morality they have

usually its determined by the strong ones of the species. in some species the strongest males get all the females. so there is no monogamy, there isn’t even a concept of love. the alpha male is usually concerned with passing his genes for the success of the species, but this isn’t a decision he makes, its just part of his instinct

killing is justified by their status. the strong kill the weak. if there are weak offspring, they are killed of. if the offspring looks like a threat, they are killed off
I think I agree with everything you said, but I don’t understand how this relates to the topic of objective moral values. Are you saying we should adopt the moral values of the animal kingdom? I would presume not, since you’re Catholic, but I’m just making sure.

V
 
It’s impossible to define or discover a source for objective moral values without mentioning a specific god or religion, since God is the source, creator, and proof of these morals.

!
 
It’s impossible to define or discover a source for objective moral values without mentioning a specific god or religion, since God is the source, creator, and proof of these morals.

!
I mostly agree, and the part I disagree with would send this thread off on a tangent, so I’ll simply say yes, I think that without God there are no objective moral values. Many apologists, however, have tried to demonstrate the existence of morality without reference to God, so I was wondering if anyone here found any of those arguments persuasive and wished to share them.

V
 
Without reference to a specific God or religion, what reason is there to believe that there are any objective moral values (objective here meaning, murder, for example, would be wrong independently of whether or not anyone thought it was wrong, etc. Objective morality rather than moral relativism) ?

P.S. I debated putting this in the moral theology forum, but I figured that the philosophy forum would be better. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Thanks in advance,
V
There is none. All morality is utimately based on some axiom or set of axioms that have no logical warrant. Believers in God draw their axioms from His self-revelations. But, as you say, without God, it all ultimately boils down to a naked assertion of X is morally right and Y is morally wrong.

An excellent treatment of this subject (from the atheistic perspective) is Richard Posner’s Problematics of Moral and Legal Theory (Harvard, 2002). The first 30 pages of the book are a tightly argued, well-written explanation of why there simply is no objective basis for saying that one moral system is better than another.

.
 
There is none. All morality is utimately based on some axiom or set of axioms that have no logical warrant. Believers in God draw their axioms from His self-revelations. But, as you say, without God, it all ultimately boils down to a naked assertion of X is morally right and Y is morally wrong.

An excellent treatment of this subject (from the atheistic perspective) is Richard Posner’s Problematics of Moral and Legal Theory (Harvard, 2002). The first 30 pages of the book are a tightly argued, well-written explanation of why there simply is no objective basis for saying that one moral system is better than another.

.
The book looks good. I doubt I’ll read it, since I think that I already agree with it, because yes, I think all moral systems developed so far are purely arbitrary. But I’m open to being convinced otherwise, of course.

V
 
And of course, any non-theists who do believe in objective moral values are encouraged to put forward their theory of morality.
 
I mostly agree, and the part I disagree with would send this thread off on a tangent, so I’ll simply say yes, I think that without God there are no objective moral values. Many apologists, however, have tried to demonstrate the existence of morality without reference to God, so I was wondering if anyone here found any of those arguments persuasive and wished to share them.

V
I’m not an apologist, theologian or ethicist. Nevertheless, it is my belief that most moral systems (in my mind, particularly the Christian one) have objective bases without being totally dependant on the underlying theologies.

When one asks for some “objective” basis, one is only saying he is seeking something outside his own opinion about it that plainly points to the truth of it. Well, as an example, it is not difficult to conclude that refraining from murder, and forbidding it in a society has a value independent of what I might personally think about it. Murdering is simply an unsuccessful life strategy, broadly speaking, as it very much encourages further murdering; a circumstance in which no one is safe. In recent times, we can look at the situation in Somalia or in the Tutsi/Hutu wars, and it is perfectly obvious that murdering can become endemic in a society and make the entire society unsuccessful and miserable, notwithstanding that most of the murderers subjectively thought themselves justified in doing it.

Catholics (and some others) would say that’s the dictate of “natural law”; a code imprinted on humanity as humanity, but reflecting, imperfectly, the laws of God.

But I think an atheist (and you can correct me if you disagree) would think some kinds of conduct are simply destructive of human life and happiness without significant exception, or are, at minimum, unsuccessful societal strategies, regardless of what the actor thinks about them.

If one grants that, then one has accepted that there are “objective” values that should be followed. Whether one calls them “moral” or not depends on what the source one thinks they arise from and whether that source is worthy of conforming our conduct to. An atheist might think (and I am no expert on atheist thinking) society has, after millenia of observation, determined that certain acts are properly to be encouraged or forbidden. And in that sense, perhaps, to an atheist, proscription of murder, for instance, might be considered “moral”.
 
I’m not an apologist, theologian or ethicist. Nevertheless, it is my belief that most moral systems (in my mind, particularly the Christian one) have objective bases without being totally dependant on the underlying theologies.

When one asks for some “objective” basis, one is only saying he is seeking something outside his own opinion about it that plainly points to the truth of it. Well, as an example, it is not difficult to conclude that refraining from murder, and forbidding it in a society has a value independent of what I might personally think about it. Murdering is simply an unsuccessful life strategy, broadly speaking, as it very much encourages further murdering; a circumstance in which no one is safe. In recent times, we can look at the situation in Somalia or in the Tutsi/Hutu wars, and it is perfectly obvious that murdering can become endemic in a society and make the entire society unsuccessful and miserable, notwithstanding that most of the murderers subjectively thought themselves justified in doing it.

Catholics (and some others) would say that’s the dictate of “natural law”; a code imprinted on humanity as humanity, but reflecting, imperfectly, the laws of God.

But I think an atheist (and you can correct me if you disagree) would think some kinds of conduct are simply destructive of human life and happiness without significant exception, or are, at minimum, unsuccessful societal strategies, regardless of what the actor thinks about them.

If one grants that, then one has accepted that there are “objective” values that should be followed. Whether one calls them “moral” or not depends on what the source one thinks they arise from and whether that source is worthy of conforming our conduct to. An atheist might think (and I am no expert on atheist thinking) society has, after millenia of observation, determined that certain acts are properly to be encouraged or forbidden. And in that sense, perhaps, to an atheist, proscription of murder, for instance, might be considered “moral”.
If I understand you correctly, I think I agree with you. I think that our beliefs about morality are determined mostly by society, and somewhat by genetics, not by the fact that an act is truly “wrong”. I think that societies that forbid murder, for example, were obviously far more likely to prosper, while societies that encouraged it (if such a society ever existed) would have died out fast. And so on for most other tenets of morality.

V
 
I doubt it. There is always the bias of the individual, even an expert. If Group A and Group B are two tribes competing over limited resources, Group A may kill off Group B to ensure their own survival.

The same is true of modern countries competing over resources. They might go to war.

I don’t think the Wisdom of the Ages would have stuck around for very long if it didn’t work.

God bless,
Ed

Choose Jesus.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top