The Existence of Objective Morality

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Catching up with Levinas12:

I think that Arendt was too emotionally close to the subject matter under consideration re: totalitarianism. In other eras people were sacrificed to the gods by extracting their still-beating hearts on an altar, or people were shipped overseas and bought and sold like livestock. The evil she is decrying is not unique to twentieth-century dictatorships, and it is not radical. It differs from more mundane or ancient evil only in focus, degree, and implementation, not in quality or kind.

re: Plato’s anxiety, I meant that I didn’t know of any evidence of Plato being anxious about his own philosophical programs, not that he wasn’t anxious about the state of affairs as they actually were.

But it seems like a weekend away from the computer has let the discussion move on… 🙂
 
Originally Posted by TheTrueCentrist
Why not simply have faith
It looks to me like you missed the point here, tonyrey. If people are entitled to have faith in Yahweh or Allah or Amitabha, then certainly they are entitled to have faith in the value of life without reference to any of those gods.
 
re: Plato’s anxiety, I meant that I didn’t know of any evidence of Plato being anxious about his own philosophical programs, not that he wasn’t anxious about the state of affairs as they actually were.
Plato may have harbored some anxiety about his philosophical programs, particularly his Theory of Forms. For example,
 
I think that Arendt was too emotionally close to the subject matter under consideration re: totalitarianism. In other eras people were sacrificed to the gods by extracting their still-beating hearts on an altar, or people were shipped overseas and bought and sold like livestock. The evil she is decrying is not unique to twentieth-century dictatorships, and it is not radical. It differs from more mundane or ancient evil only in focus, degree, and implementation, not in quality or kind.

re: Plato’s anxiety, I meant that I didn’t know of any evidence of Plato being anxious about his own philosophical programs, not that he wasn’t anxious about the state of affairs as they actually were.

But it seems like a weekend away from the computer has let the discussion move on… 🙂
Alas, the discussion has moved on. But permit me a few last remarks.

Plato may have had some anxiety about his philosophical program. For example, the dialogue, Parmenides, seems to deconstruct in an almost Derridean fashion the Theory of Forms. And, of course, there is some question about the seriousness of The Republic.

Aztecs notwithstanding, I think Arendt introduced an important distinction. Specifically, with her contention that the “novelty” of persons associated with natality and the spontaneity of human action associated with political life, i.e., what defines history itself, could disappear under totalitarian regimes.

I find it interesting the thread addresses whether there is an objective morality. But what if we “find out” that there is - we still have to “implement” it - and I’m not sure we have that capability.
 
Do you have an example of the Church’s denunciation of chattel slavery prior to 1890 or so?
John21652 provided the references I’m familiar with, and those statements reveal the heart of the Church with regards to slavery and, perhaps more importantly, to the sanctity and dignity of human life in general. I don’t see the church changing on the matter. The principle that would serve to oppose slavery has existed within the gospel from the earliest days. If her members were impeccable- or perfect enough to always act precisely according to the gospel she preaches, maybe they would’ve denounced slavery earlier and more forcefully-but that’s about the most that can be said. On the other hand, I really can’t know how I would’ve thought or acted had I lived during early church history, or the dark ages, the middle ages, the renaissance, or 100 years ago for that matter-I only know how I’d prefer to think I’d be,
 
I find it interesting the thread addresses whether there is an objective morality. But what if we “find out” that there is - we still have to “implement” it - and I’m not sure we have that capability.
I should have said: “and I’m not sure we, if unassisted, have that capability”.
 
Catching up with Levinas12: I think that Arendt was too emotionally close to the subject matter under consideration re: totalitarianism. In other eras people were sacrificed to the gods by extracting their still-beating hearts on an altar, or people were shipped overseas and bought and sold like livestock. The evil she is decrying is not unique to twentieth-century dictatorships, and it is not radical. It differs from more mundane or ancient evil only in focus, degree, and implementation, not in quality or kind. re: Plato’s anxiety, I meant that I didn’t know of any evidence of Plato being anxious about his own philosophical programs, not that he wasn’t anxious about the state of affairs as they actually were. But it seems like a weekend away from the computer has let the discussion move on… 🙂
I am part way through a book called Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin by Yale History Professor Timothy Snyder. In extraordinary detail he gives an account of the starvation of millions as a result of Stalin’s collectivisation of peasant farms in the Ukraine. Snyder brilliantly cites allmost every point of view, every statistic, every opinion to weave together a picture of a society stripped of every basic human dignity. He quotes from three of Hannah Arendt major works. Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, Origins of Totalitarianism and one of her lesser known tomes, In Der Gegenwart. In Eichmann in Jerusalem Arendt queries whether evil is simply the result of the tendency of ordinary people to obey orders and conform to mass opinion without critically thinking about the results of their action or inaction. In his trwlings through former Soviet archives, Snyder goes close to answering that question. He shows how ordinary people firstly suspended their most basic moral judgements in the name of “socialism” and in the process criminalised the peasnt population of the Ukraine. Ukrainians starved in their millions during the 1930s and the suspension of basic morality eventually led to the suspension of even common sense and reality itself. Starving peasnts caught with any morsel of food were deemed to have stolen it from the state and so were executed as criminals.

Arendt and Snyder both have reported on a perpetration of evil that has no comparison in any other way shape or form for the entire history of the human race. To dismiss Arendt as being “…too emotionally close to the subject matter…” is too dismiss all the evidence gathered from survivors and perpetrators alike. Arendt experienced first hand the effects and implications of moral relativity writ large. Snyder has uncovered survivor accounts that curl your hair with their horror as he exposes the true dehumanising effects of suspended moral judegements and the resultant descent into the banality of moral subjectivism. Stalin decreed, the Communist party faithfull acquiesced and the peasants starved. In fact, after eating their own animals after Stalin confiscated their grain, they began to eat each other. Cannibalism was rife in the Ukraine during the 1930s, Snyder writes. The Ukrainians were cut off from the rest of Russian society, prevented from leaving the Ukrain and forced to wait for death. Snyder deswcribes the measures the Communists implemented then points out that -
"Two decades later, the political philospher Hannah Arendt would present this famine in the Ukraine as the crucial event in the creation of a modern “atomisedsociety, the alienation of all from all.”
Snyder’s research has proven her to be correct. Snyder’s expose of an evil moral relativity is breathtaking with its implications for the depths to which human subjectivism can fall and why an objectified ideal is so important.
 
Perhaps you might care to enlighten us on which “…some South Pacific cultures” condoned what we call ‘adultery’. I take it you are familiar with Anthropologist Margaret Mead’s tomes ]*Coming of Age in Samoa *and *Sex and Temperament in Three Primitive Societies (1935)? *Mead attempted to prove that the sex roles were mainly a result of cultural conditioning. Absolutely no affirmations of her consclusions resulted from later Anthropological study. Hence, Mead is responsible for the myth that adultery was condoned in “some” pacific cultures. It wasn’t. In many Pacific cultures it was punishable by death. Her daughter later revealed that Mead had enjoyed a sexual relationship with one of her mentors, Anthropologist Ruth Benedict. Mead also divorced her husband and ran off with another Anthropologist, Gregory Bateson, whom she met in New Guineau whilst studying there with her husband. Mead is now notorious for beginning her study with preconcieved ideas. She is also notorious for actively seeking a broader sexual morality in her own, American, society. She has much to answer for, because she deliberately hid the objective values even south sea islanders shared with populations on the other side of the world. Her Coming of Age in Samoa was discredited by New Zealand Anthropologist Derek Freeman. Even before she arrived at any ‘scientific’ conclusions, Mead was already a champion of the moral relativity she "saw’ in other cultures.
I was referring to Meade’s work. I wish had more time to track some of these things down to confirm or refute them. Even though you seem a bit curmudgeonly to me, I appreciate your responses.
 
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                                         Originally Posted by TheTrueCentrist
Why not simply have faith* that life is objectively precious and cut out the middleman?
Because you have no valid reason for doing so. Camus and Sartre pointed out that life is absurd and meaningless in a Godless universe.

BTW God is not the middleman but the Creator!
It looks to me like you missed the point here, tonyrey. If people are entitled to have faith in Yahweh or Allah or Amitabha, then certainly they are entitled to have faith in the value of life without reference to any of those gods.
People are people are **entitled **to have faith in Yahweh or Allah or Amitabha or anything they choose because that is why we were created: to choose what to believe and how to live.

Whether they have justified by having valid reasons for their faith is another matter. Our very power to choose what to believe and how to live cannot be explained in a Godless universe…
 
I was referring to Meade’s work. I wish had more time to track some of these things down to confirm or refute them. Even though you seem a bit curmudgeonly to me, I appreciate your responses.
Well, remember this, you wrote -
For example, what would clearly be adultery to a Christian, would be a legitimate behavior among friends among some South Pacific cultures. Those cultures would accept most of the commandments as part of their moral code, but not the commandment on adultery.
As soon as I read that I knew you were referring to Margaret Meade’s work. You also wrote it as a definitive statement, which means that you believe it and anyone who reads it will accept it as true. In actual fact, it is false. If I am “curmudgeonly” it is because I am fed up with people coming along and posting nonsense to support an argument. You may not have done it intentionally, but there are many who do come onto CAF with deliberate intent to peddle false argument. The Margaret Mead fallacy has been peddled by moral relativists in support of their arguments for quite a while, yet in Anthropological circles, Mead’s work was discredited long ago. As well, she was eventually seen to be an advocate and a practicioner of the moral relativism she so very conveniently ‘saw’ amongst her subject tribes. In other words, her findings were biased and subjective. My advice is that if anyone is unsure of what it is they are writing about, they should say so and don’t be so definitive. Once you are definitive, you must ‘own’ what you write and expect the “curmudgeonly” responses!!.
 
Well, remember this, you wrote -
As soon as I read that I knew you were referring to Margaret Meade’s work. You also wrote it as a definitive statement, which means that you believe it and anyone who reads it will accept it as true. In actual fact, it is false. If I am “curmudgeonly” it is because I am fed up with people coming along and posting nonsense to support an argument. You may not have done it intentionally, but there are many who do come onto CAF with deliberate intent to peddle false argument. The Margaret Mead fallacy has been peddled by moral relativists in support of their arguments for quite a while, yet in Anthropological circles, Mead’s work was discredited long ago. As well, she was eventually seen to be an advocate and a practicioner of the moral relativism she so very conveniently ‘saw’ amongst her subject tribes. In other words, her findings were biased and subjective. My advice is that if anyone is unsure of what it is they are writing about, they should say so and don’t be so definitive. Once you are definitive, you must ‘own’ what you write and expect the “curmudgeonly” responses!!.
I did not mean that in a pejorative sense, but more out of growing respect. Maybe it is I who is quirky. Yes, I did present my statement as authoritative, based on my understanding of Mead’s reputation. If her research lacked integrity, then it would be suspect along with her reputation. My point though, even if made poorly, is that there appears to be a core set of fundamental moral values which all societies embrace, and there appear to be some values which vary from one culture to another. That is all that I was trying to say.
 
I was referring to Meade’s work. I wish had more time to track some of these things down to confirm or refute them. Even though you seem a bit curmudgeonly to me, I appreciate your responses.
John is a professor at heart, or perhaps in reality. Being curmudgeonly often goes with the territory of being well informed and scholarly.
 
People are people are **entitled **to have faith in Yahweh or Allah or Amitabha or anything they choose because that is why we were created: to choose what to believe and how to live.

Whether they have justified by having valid reasons for their faith is another matter. Our very power to choose what to believe and how to live cannot be explained in a Godless universe…
This appears to me to be a complete arbitrary bifurcation between “entitled” and “justified.” I recognize no semantic difference in this context.
 
I am part way through a book called Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin by Yale History Professor Timothy Snyder. In extraordinary detail he gives an account of the starvation of millions as a result of Stalin’s collectivisation of peasant farms in the Ukraine.
Thank you for the book recommendation; it’s been added to my reading list.
Ukrainians starved in their millions during the 1930s and the suspension of basic morality eventually led to the suspension of even common sense and reality itself. Starving peasnts caught with any morsel of food were deemed to have stolen it from the state and so were executed as criminals.
But this is as I said, evil of a different degree, not of a different kind. There were not millions of Carthaginians to starve, else Rome would have done so. The Mongols dealt with Ukraine in much the same way as the Soviets – but there were only thousands of people in Kiev to starve, not millions.
Arendt and Snyder both have reported on a perpetration of evil that has no comparison in any other way shape or form for the entire history of the human race.
See above.
To dismiss Arendt as being “…too emotionally close to the subject matter…” is too dismiss all the evidence gathered from survivors and perpetrators alike.
We have more evidence about modern brutality than ancient brutality, yes, but let’s not privilege our place in history in this regard based only on this.
Snyder’s research has proven her to be correct. Snyder’s expose of an evil moral relativity is breathtaking with its implications for the depths to which human subjectivism can fall and why an objectified ideal is so important.
This kind of evil has little to do with “subjectivism” and an “objectified ideal.” Many people furthering the Third Reich and in the other societies engaged in genocide thought they were serving an objective ideal of some kind. You named one yourself, “socialism.”
 
John is a professor at heart, or perhaps in reality. Being curmudgeonly often goes with the territory of being well informed and scholarly.
Agreed. The topics that I am best informed (and scholarly) on are fairly controversial here, so I will keep them to myself. There is much to learn here in areas which I am deficient. My thanks to everyone who shares.
 
filippo
**
This kind of evil has little to do with “subjectivism” and an “objectified ideal.” Many people furthering the Third Reich and in the other societies engaged in genocide thought they were serving an objective ideal of some kind. You named one yourself, “socialism.” **

To think you are serving an objective idea is not the same as to actually serve an objective ideal. You must be able to prove the ideal is objective. There was no objective proof that Nazism was an objective ideal. There were only a bunch of lies that the Nazis told themselves and others.
 
filippo
**
This kind of evil has little to do with “subjectivism” and an “objectified ideal.” Many people furthering the Third Reich and in the other societies engaged in genocide thought they were serving an objective ideal of some kind. You named one yourself, “socialism.” **

To think you are serving an objective idea is not the same as to actually serve an objective ideal. You must be able to prove the ideal is objective. There was no objective proof that Nazism was an objective ideal. There were only a bunch of lies that the Nazis told themselves and others.
Good point. And I think that the use of the word “thought” in the statement “thought they were serving an objective ideal of some kind” means that this was just an opinion of those people who were engaged in following the Third Reich, which in reality makes their ideals subjective, not objective.
 
Not having read all the posts so perhaps this thought has been discussed. One thing seems to me obvious for the Source of the existence of objective morality. In our Western culture we would all agree that to kill another person (other than for self defense etc.) is objectively always a moral wrong. Yet in some societies this has been practiced and is still being practiced as if this is not an moral wrong.
If some of us arguing that objective morality arises from evolutionary principles via altruism etc., then they need to show why killing is an objectively moral or neutral good in some societies which presumably arose out of that principle and is not an objectively moral or neutral good in all societies.
So much for objective morality derived from evolution.
Now where could it really have come from…?
Gerry
 
Thank you for the book recommendation; it’s been added to my reading list.
It is fabulous and an eye opener. I’m sure you will enjoy it.
But this is as I said, evil of a different degree, not of a different kind. There were not millions of Carthaginians to starve, else Rome would have done so. The Mongols dealt with Ukraine in much the same way as the Soviets – but there were only thousands of people in Kiev to starve, not millions.
I beg to differ. It is an evil of a different kind. The Ukrainian peasants were held up by the Bolshevek Revolutionaries as the epitome of the ‘oppressed’ working class. In Stalin’s persuit of foreign currency, the Ukrainian grain harvest was compulsorily taken on behalf of the state, year after year, until finally, to meet the quota set by Stalin and his Politburo, the Ukrainians had to hand over their seed grain. That, of course, reduced plantings the following year. When the supply of grain fell, Stalin introduced collectivisation to increase efficiency and of course, to obtain the communist ideal of state ownership of the means of production. The peasants then had their land taken from them. Eventually, the possession of any grain by the starving Ukrainians was a crime against the state, because the state (Stalin) decreed that the grain was state property and if it had not been handed over, it was stolen. The peasants then were made enemies of the working class, because they were attempting to steal food from them!! When the Ukrainian population dropped dramatically, threatening a labour shortage, Russians were moved in. They suffered the same fate. Then, the loyal Communist party apparatchiks failed to gather even more grsin, they were classed as enemies and taken away and shot. The peasants, once the excuse for, and even heroes of, the revolution, became a shunned and criminal class because the amount of grain they provided to the state went into decline. Stalin turned heroes into criminals and starved them to death. His own convoluted logic, supported by sycophants in the Communist Party, as described by the author, is just mind boggling to behold.
See above.
The point of my original post was not the violence per se, but the decline in morality, the suspension of morality and the rationalising away of even common sense all in the name of an ideology that had immorality as its foundation.
We have more evidence about modern brutality than ancient brutality, yes, but let’s not privilege our place in history in this regard based only on this.
Enemies destroying enemies with violence is one thing. Turning heroes and the very reason for a revolutionary social change into enemies through the abandonement of morality, logic and all common human decency is another.
This kind of evil has little to do with “subjectivism” and an “objectified ideal.” Many people furthering the Third Reich and in the other societies engaged in genocide thought they were serving an objective ideal of some kind. You named one yourself, “socialism.”
And there, in one paragraph you have identified the problem. Things like “socialism” and “communism” are humanist ‘ideals’. The objectification process can go no further than the human mind itself and what it desires. The humanist mindset is that there is no higher authority than the human mind and what it conjures up and so yes, a thing such as “socialism” comes to be objectified. However, to realise this objectified construct, morality had to be abandoned. Therefore, a truly discerning mind would have realised that the object had no moral foundation whatsoever. However, objectifying something is not quite the same as seeking out, through reason, truly objective truths. To do that, man’s mind must be open to truths that are universal, which lie outside the mind itself and yet can be percieved through reason. Socialism and communism were constructs of the mind and not something discerned as being objectively knowable.
 
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