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followingtheway
Guest
Would it morally wrong to say this to average person considering the Catholic teaching that only God knows if the average person is in Heaven, Purgatory or Hell?
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FrDavid96
Guest
No, it would not be morally wrong, because it’s absolutely true.
Only God knows if someone is in heaven, and only He can judge.
It’s morally wrong for us to presume on God’s judgement and declare that a person is in heaven.
The exception, naturally, being canonized saints–but I gather that’s not what you’re getting at here.
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VivienneJ
Guest
Not commenting on the moral rightness of this, but, in those cases where I’ve been grieving the death a loved one, I’ve felt that this does not address the huge, gaping hole in your life as you grapple with the pain of loss. It can even make you feel bad for missing the person so badly.
meltzerboy
New member
I don’t know what the Catholic teaching on this is, but, to my way of thinking, it may be comforting to the bereaved and is therefore not necessarily morally wrong. However, the Jewish custom is to wait for the bereaved family member to speak rather than offering condolences first and babbling platitudes. Sometimes an ill-chosen statement, despite the best intentions, may cause more pain than comfort.
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Barbkw
Guest
Saying, “I’m sorry for your loss” is a better statement. It carries more care and feeling to those who are suffering.
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Bohm_Bawerk
Guest
It isn’t contradictory with Church teaching because the statement is a figure of speech (trope). As it is a figure of speech, it is not meant to be taken literally. You are not making a doctrinal pronouncement of any sort.
To argue otherwise is to deny that the Church is truly universal and accommodating of other cultures. For instance, if you were to use the idiom “break a leg”, by the logic some people are exhibiting, that would be sinful as you are advocating violence to someone else. But the meaning is deeper than that and is only understood properly in its cultural context.
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FrDavid96
Guest
I need to clarify this, because it appears I missed the point of the question.
It is wrong to say that a person is in heaven, because that’s something we don’t know.
That was the question asked in the title of the thread.
It’s not wrong to say that “only God knows if the average person is in Heaven, Purgatory or Hell?”
That was in the text of the question, which I misread as the actual question.
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TimothyH
Guest
Hey Bohm, here in the deep south, such a statement can, and often is, a clear statement of doctrine. And it’s not just Catholic doctrine that is at issue.
Many evangelicals will say this about their departed churchgoing brethren who they presume to have been saved. I had a woman say to me, “He died… but he wasn’t saved.” about her uncle. It was a crystal clear statement that she believed he was not in going to Heaven. The simply Catholic reply “May God have mercy on his soul” will likely get one into an argument about salvation and praying for the dead and such things.
It is exactly the culture of the Evangelical South, which is often inseperable from its religion, that makes it a clear doctrinal statement.
-Tim-
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bmonk
Guest
I agree. When we judge others, either to be saved/in heaven, or not saved/in hell, we are being presumptuous. The Catholic response is to pray and hope the person is with God.
I find that even many Protestants find our response to be more comforting than their own. I think it’s because we admit that we don’t know.
I find that even many Protestants find our response to be more comforting than their own. I think it’s because we admit that we don’t know.
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Lost_Sheep
Guest
Not to hijack the thread, but on a somewhat related note, it seems that lately more and more newspaper obituaries are using phrases like “went to be with the Lord” or “entered his/her eternal reward” or “was called home to Jesus” instead of simply saying he or she “died”.
Isn’t it a bit presumptuous to assume everyone who dies automatically goes to Heaven?
It may give comfort to the bereaved family to think that their loved one is in Heaven, but does anyone actually know this to be true?
Isn’t it a bit presumptuous to assume everyone who dies automatically goes to Heaven?
It may give comfort to the bereaved family to think that their loved one is in Heaven, but does anyone actually know this to be true?
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Matrix_Refugee
Guest
I look at as something said to console a person grieving for a lost loved one, and as such, it’s an act of charity.
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mdgspencer
Guest
I would stay away from providing someone instant canonization. I would much prefer when I die that people will pray for my soul.
If I was speaking to a Catholic, I would say that I will pray for the person.
There are many things you could say. If you have some favorable memory of the person, you could tell about this.
If I was speaking to a Catholic, I would say that I will pray for the person.
There are many things you could say. If you have some favorable memory of the person, you could tell about this.
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followingtheway
Guest
What would make you say that? 
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tafan
Guest
Especially to young, grieving children it is one of the worse things you can say. People think it is comforting, but it is not. It is at best, a meaningless figure of speech, as such it does nothing to comfort the grieving person. For young children, they will often ask themselves: "what was wrong with this place, with me, so bad? Why is it good for mom/dad to be in a “better place” than with me?
Other things “It is God’s will, someday we will understand”. Also, never start comparing their grieving to your own experiences, no matter how similiar they are. Or “she/he is happier now, her suffering is over”. And on and on and on.
My opinion is that most common words of comfort to grieving people (again, especially children) are not good. It is the wise man who complain to himself: “I never know what to say”. Well that is best, say little, but mean what you say. A simple, and very meaningful: “I am so sorry for your lost. Is there anything you need that I can help with?”
Other things “It is God’s will, someday we will understand”. Also, never start comparing their grieving to your own experiences, no matter how similiar they are. Or “she/he is happier now, her suffering is over”. And on and on and on.
My opinion is that most common words of comfort to grieving people (again, especially children) are not good. It is the wise man who complain to himself: “I never know what to say”. Well that is best, say little, but mean what you say. A simple, and very meaningful: “I am so sorry for your lost. Is there anything you need that I can help with?”
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tafan
Guest
This is one exception to my above post. It is nice to hear stories about a lost, loved one that you have not heard of before. Especially as time goes on. This is best done with on a sympathy card, IMO.
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fred_conty
Guest
Good comment. If the person who died was a harsh person or liveda loose life, some well intended remarks might hurt because the family knows better and this simply reminds them of the bad result of a bad life. And I know it may be say “well you have no right
to judge a person you judgemental fool.” Maybe we shouldn’t say it but we do know it.
And a greiving person need not be reminded of their heavy suspicions. It dosen’t help.
And I agree with the other person who said that the deceased need our prayers because of
purgatory, which anyone of any faith is subject to even tho denied. There may be something very important we can do for them by easeing their pain and we should never forget them in our prayers. And praying especially for our non Catholic friends is a must.
Just a thought.
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bmonk
Guest
I agree with fred conty and tafan.
Another line to avoid with children is “God took him/her to himself.” It makes God seem like a selfish person–“how come they have to be with God and not with me?”
Another line to avoid with children is “God took him/her to himself.” It makes God seem like a selfish person–“how come they have to be with God and not with me?”
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