The external world cannot be known for certain

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Bahman said:
Like classical and quantum world. What would happen if we open quantum world? We don’t know yet.
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Sorry, but you are just throwing around random philosophical terms without explaining what they mean. You will have to elaborate on what you mean.
 
blase6 said:
Sorry, but you are just throwing around random philosophical terms without explaining what they mean. You will have to elaborate on what you mean.
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Ok, this is going to be a little long:
  1. Classical Mechanics: This is a scientific framework which claims that given a state of a system at a given them, one can know the state of system in later time. This somehow create the framework of determinism, so called Newtonism. Cause and effect, etc.
  2. Quantum Mechanics: This is a scientific framework which claims that we cannot know the state of a system since for any measurable quantity like position, there exist a conjugate quantity like momentum in which measuring one quantity with complete certainty leave another quantity completely unknown. This to some extend brings consciousness into the play but the equation of motion for the state of system is still deterministic.
This means that the reality as we see does not look like as it is. A stone always falls in classical regime, but an atom could violate this principle to some extend.

This means that reality has folds depending on our scope.

I am open to go further if you wish. You can find special relativity, general relativity, etc as other examples.
 
Bahman said:
Ok, this is going to be a little long:
  1. Classical Mechanics: This is a scientific framework which claims that given a state of a system at a given them, one can know the state of system in later time. This somehow create the framework of determinism, so called Newtonism. Cause and effect, etc.
  2. Quantum Mechanics: This is a scientific framework which claims that we cannot know the state of a system since for any measurable quantity like position, there exist a conjugate quantity like momentum in which measuring one quantity with complete certainty leave another quantity completely unknown. This to some extend brings consciousness into the play but the equation of motion for the state of system is still deterministic.
This means that the reality as we see does not look like as it is. A stone always falls in classical regime, but an atom could violate this principle to some extend.

This means that reality has folds depending on our scope.

I am open to go further if you wish. You can find special relativity, general relativity, etc as other examples.
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Sorry, but I don’t get how this is connected to knowledge of the external world.
 
blase6 said:
Sorry, but I don’t get how this is connected to knowledge of the external world.
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Well. Consider the classical mechanics as the first layer. This implies determinism, cause and effect, locality, etc. Is it a valid framework when you change your perspective? No. The reality changes depending on how we look at it. Is determinism is a correct point of view always? No. The extreme example are alive beings.
 
Bahman said:
Well. Consider the classical mechanics as the first layer. This implies determinism, cause and effect, locality, etc. Is it a valid framework when you change your perspective? No. The reality changes depending on how we look at it. Is determinism is a correct point of view always? No. The extreme example are alive beings.
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My point is that the perceived world cannot be known certainly to correspond to an external reality. Determinism versus indeterminism is not really what I am talking about.
 
blase6 said:
My point is that the perceived world cannot be known certainly to correspond to an external reality. Determinism versus indeterminism is not really what I am talking about.
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That is a good point but you have to wait for that reality! Maybe the world after our death. Or maybe when we grow strong enough.
 
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