The Extreme Penances Of The Past!

[Dempsey1919]

I am currently reading a biograpy entitled “Saint Dominic” by Augusta Theodosia Drane. Earlier today, I read the following letter written by St. Dominic concerning the penance of a former heretic:

“To all the faithful in Christ, to whom these presents may come, Brother Dominic, canon of Osma, wishes health in the Lord. By the authority of the Lord Abbot of Citeaux, who has committed us to this office, we have reconciled to the Church the bearer of these presents, Ponce Royer, converted by the grace of God from heresy to the Faith; and we order, in virtue of the oath which he has taken to us, that during three Sundays or feastdays he shall go to the entrance of the village, bare to the waist and be struck with rods by the priest. We also order him to abstain forever from flesh, eggs, cheese, and all which comes from the flesh, except at Easter, Pentescost, and Christmas when he shall eat some to protest agaist his former errors. He shall keep three Lents each year, fasting and abstaining from fish, unless from bodily infirmity or the heat of the weather he shall be dispensed. He shall dress in religious habit, as well in the form as in the color, to the ends of which shall be hung two little crosses. Every day, if possible, he shall hear Mass, and he shall go to vespers on festival days. Seven times a day he shall recite ten ‘Pater Nosters,’ and he shall say twenty in the middle of the night. If he neglect to do so through contempt, we will that he be excommunicated as perjured and heretic, and be separated from the society of the faithful.”

Does anyone else think this is extremely harsh? I am not criticising the great Saint, but I am expressing shock at the severity of penances which were meted out in days gone by.

In our day, we consider a decade of the Rosary, or some other prayer as penance. The faithful of the past seem like spiritual athletes by comparison.

What do you think of the penances of the past?

Why does the Church in our day have a far more relaxed attitude to penance?

Furthermore, what is your attitude to penance in general?

 

[fbl9]

now that i know the true church i most likely would fit right in with these “extreme” penances…myself i would gladly undertake these penances,mind you though even after four yrs of coming home i most likely would still be performing my penance for the yrs i spent the way i did… …relaxed not really just not so sevre…i am happy when i perform my acts of penance,that’s my attitude towards penance…it shows i want to mend the gap i alone created between myself and the Savior

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Does anyone else think this is extremely harsh? I am not criticising the great Saint, but I am expressing shock at the severity of penances which were meted out in days gone by. We know at the least that this person was guilty of heresy, an extremely serious offense against the unity of the Body of Christ. People were in those times more likely than people today to see things more ‘clearly’ and to in fact wish to make ‘great’ amendments for any ‘great’ sin. . .as this would have been.

In our day, we consider a decade of the Rosary, or some other prayer as penance. The faithful of the past seem like spiritual athletes by comparison. And if you read, say, Thomas a Kempis’s “Imitation of Christ”, written not long after St. Dominic’s days, he was already bewailing that the monks, priests and laity of this time (who look like giants to US) were looking like PYGMIES compared to the apostles and the great early Christian martyrs, hermits, and evangelists who were even MORE zealous in both their ‘love for God’ and in their penitential practices. I think it is a truism that all things considered, people tend to become more ‘lax and lazy’ with the ‘familiar’ things unless they are somehow shocked out of their complacency into seeing how valuable the Faith is that they have taken for granted. . .

What do you think of the penances of the past? Taking into context the people and their times. . .I think the majority of them, done for the appropriate reasons, perfectly apposite and appropriate. Then, as now (or always) there would have existed opportunities for both ‘getting around’ the penance one should have had, or to seek self-aggrandisement and the “pharisee” type of ‘look at me and my penance, see how wonderful I am for abasing myself’. . .but that doesn’t negate the necessity for penance.

Why does the Church in our day have a far more relaxed attitude to penance? I’m not sure “The Church” does, really. I think that it’s more along the lines of certain prelates/bishops and above all laity (bolstered by society) who have become simultaneously convinced both that people are too naturally GOOD to NEED much penance, while firmly convinced that people are so weak and frail and have so much difficulty in being obedient that we need to be as gentle as possible and not give them much, if ANY, penance, lest they be annihilated and ‘give up’ on Christianity entirely.

Yes, I know the two points of view contradict each other, but let’s not confuse the issue with facts now. It’s judgmental. And I’m sure somebody would give ME penance for saying something like that even though THAT contradicts both the arguments above, too.

No, The Church has not changed, but people are ignoring Her, loudly 'La-la-la-I’m-not-listening" to anything which smacks of implying that God isn’t in OUR debt for whatever time we deign to give Him, and whatever we ‘throw in His way’, insistent that anything we ‘give’ is more than acceptable to Him.

Furthermore, what is your attitude to penance in general? We need more of it, and we need to cultivate a Christ-like attitude to it. Remember, "Jesus, though he was in the form of God, did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at. Rather, He emptied Himself and took the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of men. He was known to be of human estate and it was thus that He humbled Himself, obediently accepting even death, death on a cross! "

If He did such things for us, why is it so hard for us to consider doing the least little penance for HIM?

 

[Coder]

Does anyone else think this is extremely harsh?

…and we order, in virtue of the oath which he has taken to us…

He refers to ordering these actions in virtue of an oath that the former heretic made. Is it possible that the penitent agreed to or even participated in the choosing of these penances? Could they have been voluntary penances over and above required penances?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You have to take into account the times and the culture these saints lived in. Although they seem extreme to us today, and they are, in those days, they were nothing compared to the punishments eked out by the local governments. For example, in the 1500’s in Spain, a person caught steeling a sheep, would be disemboweled. If you were thrown into prison, your family had to pay for your room and board, as lousy as it was. You stayed beyond your sentence, until you were paid up.

Today, we don’t have such extreme punishments in secular life, and neither do we carry out the type of penances that St. Dominic did.

Jim

 

[Andruschak]

I What do you think of the penances of the past?

Why does the Church in our day have a far more relaxed attitude to penance?

Furthermore, what is your attitude to penance in general?

Our bodies are Temples Of The Holy Spirit. Penances and mortifications that damage the body permanently, or cause long-term damage, should not be undertaken, in my opinion.:nope:

Yes, mortifications and penances were much more severe in the past, but one cannot help wondering how much Spritual Pride was a motive.

“Look at me! I am doing extreme penance and mortification!! I am soooooo much holier then thou!!!”

And Jesus wanted us to keep our fasting unnoticed by others. I would think this applied to other penances and mortifications.:yup:

Mistakes from the past should not be binding on the present. :dts:

For all who would like more penance…just go ahead and do it, but don’t tell amyone about it, except your Spiritual Director, of course.

This opinions have not been endorsed by my three cats, who would puncture my skin if I imposed fasting on them.

 

[fbl9]

hi Andruschak…the only way spiritual pride would be involved is if one choose to do penance in an extreme manner…take the heritical group known as the floggers they started out fine then fell into sin against the body by doing self imposed penances,i said i would have gladly done the extreme penances of the past,not out of pride as you may think but out of love for God.and in the times mentioned they knew the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit…that is why the extreme penance to purify the flesh as to make a suitable dwelling place for the Holy Spirit…imposed penance can be public self imposed should not be just as fasting should be cause it is self imposed…peace

 

[Dempsey1919]

Yes, mortifications and penances were much more severe in the past, but one cannot help wondering how much Spritual Pride was a motive

St. Dominic performed his penances in secret. In fact, very little is known about his spiritual life. However, we do know that he performed very austere acts of penance.

The Saints of old seem to have appreciated the gravity of their sins far more fully than modern Catholics. Perhaps this is why their penances were far more harsh.

If these ancient Saints were correct, then I worry that our penances will be woefully inadequate. Of course, I speak for myself when I make that statement.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The Saints of old seem to have appreciated the gravity of their sins far more fully than modern Catholics. Perhaps this is why their penances were far more harsh.

If these ancient Saints were correct, then I worry that our penances will be woefully inadequate. Of course, I speak for myself when I make that statement.

It makes one wonder.

I’ll also speak for myself here. In the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima, at Akita, etc. (both 20th century) there are apparently far more people in danger of hell than the average person today imagines–and also, spending a great deal of time in purgatory–and I **personally think **(only my opinion) that a factor in this could be that people have lost a sense of the gravity of sin.

Do you remember that one of the children asked our Lady if a young friend of theirs would be in heaven… . and our Lady answered that the friend would, but would be in purgatory until the end of time (the last judgment?) This friend was not ‘known’ to have sinned any ‘spectacular’ sins, either.

Many people have expressed a disbelief in this apparition specifically because of what they think is an ‘incorrect idea’ about the ‘too harsh severity’ meted out to ‘some poor little girl’.

They just don’t get it.

Those who shy away from Akita’s message of “penance, penance, penance” are the same. They can’t understand why we need to do penance because “Jesus saved us already”, “I’m not that big a sinner and neither are most of the people I know”, etc.

Extreme penance? To some, “any” penance is too extreme. They have an ‘all or nothing’ view (partly inculturated). Look at the reactions of many (not all) posters on forum topics. Somebody will mention “Should priests in trying to instill a sense of the sacred into the faithful do things like institute a modest dress code, let the people know they have an obligation to be free of grave sin before confessing, and attend Mass every Sunday and holy day?” . . Before the first page is through, somebody is sure to post:

“What about the poor people you’re turning away from God with a dress code?”
“What about the poor people who miss Mass because they’re caring for babies?”
“What if they don’t think they’re in grave sin?”
“Who made you the judgment police?”
Etc. Etc. Etc.

Argue, argue, argue. . . Satan loves that because if you keep people so busy arguing that they aren’t actually doing the right things because of the arguing–then he’s winning.

Don’t let him win.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I’ll also speak for myself here. In the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima, at Akita, etc. (both 20th century) there are apparently far more people in danger of hell than the average person today imagines–and also, spending a great deal of time in purgatory–and I personally think (only my opinion) that a factor in this could be that people have lost a sense of the gravity of sin.

Do you remember that one of the children asked our Lady if a young friend of theirs would be in heaven… . and our Lady answered that the friend would, but would be in purgatory until the end of time (the last judgment?) This friend was not ‘known’ to have sinned any ‘spectacular’ sins, either.

I agree. I believe people do not really meditate on the reality of Hell. I was guilty of this myself. I didn’t associate my personal sins with my damnation. I was aware of the consequence of sin, but I never really considered the reality of Hell and what it would be like. It was only when I thought deeply about Hell and Purgatory that I realised the gravity of my sins.

It was only when I realised that sinning would result in my damnation that I began to feel sorrowful for them. I also realised what Christ did for us, and I didn’t want to hurt him anymore. However, even though I endeavour to be contrite for my sins, I don’t even come near to the level of sorrow experienced by some Saints; for example, a companion of St Dominic named Brother Bertrand used to constantly weep for his sins! The Saints of old really put us to shame.

Perhaps this is why the Blessed Mother warned us about the danger of Hell. Maybe we are not as contrite as we should be? Not only that, but perhaps we don’t make enough reparation for our sins? Or could it be that the Saints of old were too contrite?

Never in my life will I reach the levels of sanctity shown by St. Dominic and his companions. Through reading his biography, I have come to appreciate the true gravity of sin. I still don’t know if the level of penance practiced by these Saints is healthy, but I do know that my own penances have been inadequate. Penance seems to have fallen out of fashion.

 

[Andruschak]

I. I still don’t know if the level of penance practiced by these Saints is healthy, but I do know that my own penances have been inadequate. Penance seems to have fallen out of fashion.

Not so.

penitents.org

 

[Dempsey1919]

Not so.

This is a special Confraternity, which takes four years to join, according to the website you provided.

I was referring to the average lay person such as myself when I made the above comments.

 

[Andruschak]

This is a special Confraternity, which takes four years to join, according to the website you provided.

I was referring to the average lay person such as myself when I made the above comments.

The four year formation period is designed to sort of ease you into this lifestyle, to avoid “burnout”

But you can always start out slowly by making EVERY Friday a day of fasting and abstinance. If you are not doing a daily rosary, perhaps this is a time to start. Easy Does It, as we say in AA.

I have no idea where you could buy a fitted hairshirt.

 

[Dempsey1919]

But you can always start out slowly by making EVERY Friday a day of fasting and abstinance. If you are not doing a daily rosary, perhaps this is a time to start. Easy Does It, as we say in AA.

I am going to start doing some form of penance on Friday. I was considering abstaining from meat but this isn’t really a penance for me. I’ll have to think of something else.

Also, does saying the Rosary count as a penance? I say the Rosary as often as I can but I didn’t realise it could be counted as a penance.

 

[Andruschak]

I am going to start doing some form of penance on Friday. I was considering abstaining from meat but this isn’t really a penance for me. I’ll have to think of something else.

I also mentioned FASTING every Friday, as well as abstinance every Friday. A good way to start.

Also, does saying the Rosary count as a penance? I say the Rosary as often as I can but I didn’t realise it could be counted as a penance.

***For some people, it can be, if the time to do the Rosary comes from some other activity they are attachhed to, such as a favourite TV show.

And in general, for a penitential life, the more prayer the better. That is why the Confraternity of Penitents asks its members to do the Divine Office daily.***

 

[Ceil-1]

Thanks for that great link.