The "f" word, let's analyse!

[chevalier]

First of all, this is meant to be light-hearted. We’re gonna laugh and chuckle and we’ll react to any oh so human complaining with a sense of humour, okay?

Obviously, the “f” word is “friend”. This is a word all men dread but some have more intimiate affinity with it than others.

Here’s a short, funny “why are you still single” test from an unaffiliated free dating site (no, I’m not advertising) that I took a couple of minutes ago after spotting it randomly:

okcupid.com/tests/the-why-are-you-single-test

I got the following result:

Male Best Friend

You scored 48 despair, 25 relationship potential, 92 feelings, and 75 patience

You’re always there, you’re nice, you’re the shoulder to cry on, you get along just fine, why won’t she/he date you? you’re the “male best friend” [name omitted]: A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend. This always starts out with, you’re a great guy, but I don’t like you in that way. This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we’re not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we’re going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn’t work out, we’ll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we hired.

Yuppee. Sounds exactly like me (except those that see me as a friend will have a tendency to flirt with me or show jealousy, so there goes the “strictly” part). Here we go.

So what’s the deal, you might ask. Basically, I’d like to discuss the “friend” problem, particularly with the ladies, but far would I be from not hearing it from a brother in arms! Being INTJ as I am, I would like to analyse it because that’s what one does with problems, no? Just kidding. It would be very interesting to hear a female point of view on this (for the record, the narrative quoted *is *a female point of view, but it’s descriptive more than analytical). It interests me from from an academic courtesy standpoint too, so shoot away and don’t hold your breath (I will read it and the more data the merrier).

Any takes?

 

[St_Francis]

INTJ wannabe here (I hate that I cannot score a J but everyone I know laughs at me, so I guess I really am indecisive!)

As a long-married lady now, I can look back and see that I did not really understand the nature of marriage or how to judge what sort of pre-marriage relationship would lead to a good marriage. Luckily I did end up with my husband who is really great despite my cluelessness!

Dating as seen by society seems to bear no relationship to real marriage, and “marriage” nowadays seems to be strictly a more serious form of “going steady.” (Don’t know if they still use that term–it was used but seemed old-fashioned when I was young). In fact, I know a young couple who married and divorced within months (I think they were engaged longer than they were married ) and that to me exemplifies what is wrong with dating.

 

[whatevergirl]

*My question is…why would such guy hang around a girl that isn’t into him…and makes that known? Is he hoping she’s kidding? Is he hoping she will change her mind? Is he hoping he can change her mind? Part of the problem isn’t the women…it’s the fact that some men put themselves through things that they shouldn’t. If a woman says…I don’t like you like that–STOP HANGING OUT WITH HER…AND BUYING HER DINNERS, and so on. Stop praying she’ll change her mind. ‘‘She’s not into you,’’ isn’t the worst thing in the world…just means, she’s not the one for you. I also think that men fall in love with a woman’s looks…that’s not love…that’s infatuation. Men would be wise to not confuse the two. I remember guys back in college who would hang around me, after I clearly made it known nothing was going beyond friends. So…at one point is it not the woman’s fault, and the guy just can’t take no for an answer?
*

 

[Kimothy80]

chevalier~

I decided to take this test for the fun of it and…I got the exact same score as you. And you know? It seems to fit me to a “T”

I AM the kind of a girl that guys see as “buddy Kim” which isn’t a bad thing but…for once I’d like one to give more than a friendly glance, ya know?

 

[The_Bucket]

*My question is…why would such guy hang around a girl that isn’t into him…and makes that known? Is he hoping she’s kidding? Is he hoping she will change her mind? Is he hoping he can change her mind? Part of the problem isn’t the women…it’s the fact that some men put themselves through things that they shouldn’t. If a woman says…I don’t like you like that–STOP HANGING OUT WITH HER…AND BUYING HER DINNERS, and so on. Stop praying she’ll change her mind. ‘‘She’s not into you,’’ isn’t the worst thing in the world…just means, she’s not the one for you. I also think that men fall in love with a woman’s looks…that’s not love…that’s infatuation. Men would be wise to not confuse the two. I remember guys back in college who would hang around me, after I clearly made it known nothing was going beyond friends. So…at one point is it not the woman’s fault, and the guy just can’t take no for an answer?
*

Bang. The more you are an orbiter, the less likely you’ll ever make that leap from the friends ladder. So the point is, make the leap as soon as you possibly can. In fact, never be on the friends ladder first. Quite frankly, the only reason I went from being a friend to boyfriend to husband with my wife is because a) we were never particularly close and b) because she secretly had a bit of a crush on me and she always admired my outspokenness.

Should your mate be your best friend? Of course. But you have to spur the romantic interest FIRST, before becoming friends in almost every case. As I’m sure this will irritate whatevergirl (and my wife if she ever read this) you have to demonstrate your alpha qualities to get a woman’s attention before you can supplement them with your beta qualities to build a life together. So for all you guys that want to show women how generous and kind and loving and compassionate you are… stop. Save it for the third date. Demonstrate how bold, charming, and strong (physically and character wise) you are first. That will make you appealing as a suitable mate as she will be attracted and feel safe with you. Then she can “discover” that other side of you that will help her feel not just safe but also comfortable. It will be a nice “surprise” for her and you can play it cool by saying that you’re not that great of a guy, yadda yadda and that will just increase your value in her eyes. But the thing is you have to make sure she’s already interested before you make that sort of play.

 

[The_Bucket]

chevalier~

I decided to take this test for the fun of it and…I got the exact same score as you. And you know? It seems to fit me to a “T”

I AM the kind of a girl that guys see as “buddy Kim” which isn’t a bad thing but…for once I’d like one to give more than a friendly glance, ya know?

Hope you don’t take offense, but there are ways to show that you’re available that aren’t immodest or immoral. I’m sure there are plenty of guys that revert to that mode with you simply because you put up some kind of subconscious wall up and guys pick up on it and assume that what you mean is that you’re not interested so now THEY’RE not interested. Seen it with plenty of girls that are attractive but never approached, not because they’re intimidating or anything, but because guys assume, based on a public projection, that she has a boyfriend or is simply not interested.

I don’t really know how to address that since I’m a guy, but suffice it to say that if you’re looking to get a glance or two, then make that known! Take small steps of initiative (whatever they may be) and see if you get approached. Most guys aren’t interested in the girls that make huge productions out of themselves or are ridiculously flirtatious (unless it’s college and they’re looking for a one night stand, not a girlfriend) but they won’t approach a girl who seems like she’s taken herself entirely out of the marketplace. You know what I mean? I hope so, because I think I lost myself a few sentences into this.

 

[chevalier]

My question is…why would such guy hang around a girl that isn’t into him…and makes that known? Is he hoping she’s kidding? Is he hoping she will change her mind? Is he hoping he can change her mind? Part of the problem isn’t the women…it’s the fact that some men put themselves through things that they shouldn’t. If a woman says…I don’t like you like that–STOP HANGING OUT WITH HER…AND BUYING HER DINNERS, and so on. Stop praying she’ll change her mind. ‘‘She’s not into you,’’ isn’t the worst thing in the world…just means, she’s not the one for you. I also think that men fall in love with a woman’s looks…that’s not love…that’s infatuation. Men would be wise to not confuse the two. I remember guys back in college who would hang around me, after I clearly made it known nothing was going beyond friends. So…at one point is it not the woman’s fault, and the guy just can’t take no for an answer?

What if we look at before the “no”, that is, what leads to the “f” word? There’s no opportunity for not taking a no for an answer before you hear the no and here’s the problem: some people consistently get into the buddy category, i.e. like it says in the test results narrative, “we’re going to keep your CV to compare everybody with you and we’re going to call you from time to time to complain about whomever we hire but we won’t hire you.”

 

[chevalier]

Bang. The more you are an orbiter, the less likely you’ll ever make that leap from the friends ladder.

I’m not an orbiter, actually, far from it. I take things gently, but still in rather open ways. I don’t ever stick around to provide testimony of someone’s hotness.

Quite frankly, the only reason I went from being a friend to boyfriend to husband with my wife is because a) we were never particularly close and b) because she secretly had a bit of a crush on me and she always admired my outspokenness.

I’ve heard the the “f” word from women who’ve openly claimed to admire me for this or that quality. In fact, most of them did.

Should your mate be your best friend? Of course. But you have to spur the romantic interest FIRST, before becoming friends in almost every case. As I’m sure this will irritate whatevergirl (and my wife if she ever read this) you have to demonstrate your alpha qualities to get a woman’s attention before you can supplement them with your beta qualities to build a life together

It always starts from something alpha. I have no self-preservation instinct when it comes to openers.

So for all you guys that want to show women how generous and kind and loving and compassionate you are… stop. Save it for the third date. Demonstrate how bold, charming, and strong (physically and character wise) you are first. That will make you appealing as a suitable mate as she will be attracted and feel safe with you. Then she can “discover” that other side of you that will help her feel not just safe but also comfortable. It will be a nice “surprise” for her and you can play it cool by saying that you’re not that great of a guy, yadda yadda and that will just increase your value in her eyes. But the thing is you have to make sure she’s already interested before you make that sort of play.

Doing that would feel to me like playing head games and selling carpets. In fact, I would have trouble respecting anyone who fell for that, too, probably to the point I couldn’t get my mind to want a relationship with that person. (I’m not meaning to be confrontational, just being blunt.)

What’s more, I know this is counterintuitive and it may sound like I’m being a jerk, but the manoeuvre you talk about seems to be a beta thing to do to me. As in, denying your true self and putting on a disguise to please somebody–and not so much please somebody as please his bad thinking that we have little respect for (at least I do, but I don’t think you have particular love for it, either).

 

[The_Bucket]

What if we look at before the “no”, that is, what leads to the “f” word? There’s no opportunity for not taking a no for an answer before you hear the no and here’s the problem: some people consistently get into the buddy category, i.e. like it says in the test results narrative, “we’re going to keep your CV to compare everybody with you and we’re going to call you from time to time to complain about whomever we hire but we won’t hire you.”

Chev,

Being a lawyer, I’m pretty sure you’d be able to maneuver around posts and articles from the seduction community that are, let’s just say, less than admirable. But frankly, there’s a lot to be learned from PUAs… you just need to make sure you’re not using the dark side of the force, as it were. Plenty of guys learn pick-up tips not to get women into bed right away, but just to well, meet women!

I’ll admit I never read up on this stuff before I was married and thus have no real use for it. But I’ve always wondered why my relationship with my wife ended up in marriage as opposed to fizzling out quickly as some other ones did. More importantly, I wanted to figure out how I didn’t get the LJBF conversation as I had soooo many other times! I quickly came to the realization that well, there were plenty of openings in other first conversations with women that I just blew it on. I mean I didn’t just disqualify myself like the seduction community suggests, I pulled myself entirely out of the race within two minutes. How? I was too distant, too “respectful.” I put women on such a high pedestal I demonstrated that either a) I had no interest in them or b) I was not worth their time because I was prostrating myself before them.

I know you have a love of chivalry. But think about that for a second. Chivalry wasn’t all about deference to women and bowing before them. The tournament was a test of meddle, of character, of strength and of fortitude. It was basically a very literal demonstration of who was most worthy of passing his genes to the next generation… as well as a way to burn off the violent embers that glowed constantly throughout the Middle Ages and not have a pointless war. And at the end, what happens? The man just doesn’t get selected by the lady, he then accepts her selection and carries her off! That’s why both men and women love the romanticized version of the Middle Ages. The men got a chance to prove their mettle in mock combat and win the hand of the fine lady without the intricacies of modern dating. And the women got the choicest man of the lot without having to figure out which one was best! And, of course, because of the morals of the day, all parties chastity were respected.

Obviously this sort of thing almost never really happened, but there’s a reason the popular image of the era is appealing to both sexes.

 

[The_Bucket]

IDoing that would feel to me like playing head games and selling carpets. In fact, I would have trouble respecting anyone who fell for that, too, probably to the point I couldn’t get my mind to want a relationship with that person. (I’m not meaning to be confrontational, just being blunt.)

What’s more, I know this is counterintuitive and it may sound like I’m being a jerk, but the manoeuvre you talk about seems to be a beta thing to do to me. As in, denying your true self and putting on a disguise to please somebody–and not so much please somebody as please his bad thinking that we have little respect for (at least I do, but I don’t think you have particular love for it, either).

I seriously don’t understand. Why would you throw your entire life story out there right away and ask people to take it or leave it? Aren’t you on your “best behavior” on the first few dates before settling in? Don’t girls primp and try on multiple dresses for those first few dates before feeling comfortable enough later on for their suitors to see them at something other than their best? That’s not dishonesty. That’s peacocking and a very mild form at that. You see it in nature all of the time and there’s nothing wrong with putting your best foot forward, or in a way you know will get the attention you desire. It’s just an opening, a way to get past the impressive LJBF barriers that women erect. And make no mistake, those barriers are very real and they are based out of self-preservation. After all, from an evolutionary women get one shot at finding the best man possible to create the best offspring. Men have far more chances to spread their seed.

I get that we’re all called to move way beyond our basest and primitive responses. I totally agree. But playing to those instincts is the difference between being friends and being a potential suitor in many, many occasions and that’s perfectly fine!

To your point of being “someone that you’re not,” well that’s just nonsense. Like I said, it’s ridiculous to throw out your entire life’s story and tell someone you just met to either accept it or pass it by. You’ll always get passed by if you have that attitude. Would you want to know everything about a prospective bride on the first date, or would you rather get to know her over time? I’d choose the latter of course, simply because the former scenario would be information overload and honestly, learning new things about someone you love or think you might love or just like over a period of time is awesome. It’s all about the thrill of the chase, the adventure, the revelations both good and bad and the tests of your bond.

I’d never counsel someone to be someone that he’s not. I’d just say to trust your gut, be bold and be charming. Get your best “macho” qualities out there right away without being a jerk and drop subtle hints that there’s more to you than just that to make yourself mysterious. You’ve made it very clear that you hate the rules of the game, but try playing. Just once. it’s actually fun and sometimes, the first time you really play, you hit the jackpot. I did.

 

[whatevergirl]

What if we look at before the “no”, that is, what leads to the “f” word? There’s no opportunity for not taking a no for an answer before you hear the no and here’s the problem: some people consistently get into the buddy category, i.e. like it says in the test results narrative, “we’re going to keep your CV to compare everybody with you and we’re going to call you from time to time to complain about whomever we hire but we won’t hire you.”

A woman who likes to string men along so she can test the waters with everyone…this is what you describe. Is that the kind of woman you’re wanting? No. So…be thankful your resume is put in the filling cabinet.

That said…there seems to be this notion on here, as I’ve seen it in other threads…that men are visual. Yes, that is true. BUT, SO ARE WOMEN. Women need to be attracted to men also, otherwise you’ll get friended. That’s not being harsh, that’s reality. Men often see looks first, but many women do also…and many women ‘‘pick’’ men based on chemistry…just like men. After the initial chemistry, and a dating dance has been established…then, the woman sees what else lies beneath. Attraction comes first…it always has, it always will. Something about the guy has to attract the woman…his confidence, his appearance, his voice…something has to catch her eye. Different as to what might catch a man’s eye, but perhaps the ‘‘f’’ word comes up…because there just is no attraction on her part. NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. You could be the nicest man on the planet…MOVE ON if she friends you but wants you around paying for her dinner. Again, don’t take it personal, not every woman will find you appealing. I’m not saying you, as in chev…I’m saying a collective ‘‘you.’’

Like The Bucket said…about being friends. I was friends with my husband, first. But, there was attraction there also…right away. I just wasn’t ready for a super serious thing at that time…but, he was. We split up, for a short time, and then he came back into my life…and I missed him in that absence. That can happen, too. So, being someone’s best friend in a marriage is important…but if you hear the classic ‘‘I think of you as a friend, not like that,’’ stop buying her dinners. Trust me. Looking back, if I could press rewind button…I would never have hung out with guys that I only wanted to be friends with, who I KNEW wanted more. It’s wrong, on the woman’s part. If you wish to ignore my advice…then, you will have to suffer the consequences. *

 

[whatevergirl]

*And just a show of hands…how many men here typically look for a strong, PRACTICING Catholic girl? Yes, she should have other qualities that you like…you need to be attracted to her, we went over that. But, are you TRULY seeking out girls in the practicing Catholic community OR are you just seeking who attracts you and hoping and praying she’s Catholic, and if not…you’ll deal with it later? Be honest. I ask, because a PRACTICING Catholic young lady won’t jerk you around. So…only date in that circle, and the chances of being jerked around will dissipate. Not saying you won’t ever be hurt (sometimes relationships hurt, break ups hurt)…but, someone who puts God FIRST, will wish the best for others, and will conduct herself in a way that isn’t like the secular world. And there are beautiful Catholic girls everywhere…at mass, I’m amazed at how many young women there are who seem single, and are stunners. So…food for thought.

Again…trust me. *

 

[The_Bucket]

Yeah in my case, my wife and I met in Catholic youth group. I know, right, I’m such a player. Such a pickup artist!

At any rate, back then I was a loud, obnoxious and overweight guy with his eye on a very quiet girl. Didn’t pay any attention to my now-wife… mostly because while she was a good looking girl and very nice, she had a very unattractive and annoying friend who had a crush on me. Had to avoid that. My wife and I were acquaintances and when we first “re-connected” about four years later she told me that she had always thought it was cool that I spoke up in defense of the Church whenever any of the people in youth group (who were there for the free pizza) didn’t take it seriously. And she knew that my loud mouth meant I only had a smaller group of friends but she thought that was courageous and while I wasn’t terribly physically attractive because I needed to lose weight, the other attributes sort of “closed the gap” as it were.

Well hearing that even a moron like me eventually got around to asking her out since bringing something up from years past for almost no reason is a good sign she is interested. The rest is history I suppose.

Looking back, I’m very glad I wasn’t closer friends because then it would have been incredibly hard to make that leap from the friends ladder because I would be mentally disqualified. And I’m glad I didn’t try to date her back then because I was immature and it would have likely ended in disaster. How do I know? That quiet girl I was pining for… we did end up dating and it blew up three months later because I never made any kind of move to escalate the relationship… and no I don’t mean in an immoral way. All for the best of course, but the bottom line is and always will be that you need to put that best foot forward that will spark some chemistry and leading with “Hi there, I am a very respectful gentleman and you seem like a nice young woman. How about we talk about innocuous things and see where it goes from there?” isn’t going to get you anywhere.

And like weg, this isn’t directed towards you specifically chev and I don’t mean specifically about openers. I’m talking about general attitude for the first meeting and couple of subsequent dates. Dial up the charm, dial up the banter and dial up the very, very mild physical interaction… like putting your hand on her shoulder or something. Dial back the part where you love puppies, babies and respect her entire being.Just don’t mention it at all. Oh and just because you should keep some of that stuff on the shelf doesn’t mean you can’t open doors for her. Just do it in a way that shows you taking control of the situation, not being overly deferential.

 

[chevalier]

Bucket, I know a good deal and then some about picking up. In my “career”, I’ve made moves on women in front of their mothers, obtained phone numbers from strangers on public transport, stolen wingwomen from my female acquaintances, got strangers to approach me, picked up in-company calls in French and gathered a staring crowd when phoning the clerks at the court or a female lawyer from another firm, the last time I worked with people… and I’m skipping quite a few. I don’t shy away from delivering a killer move (bad boys could watch and learn), but I see absolutely no fun in keeping a woman uncertain in a serious way, let alone domination plays and other monkey business (I can win it, what’s the deal, it doesn’t make my day any nicer). I want a companion, not a broken addict or a trained pet.

This may not be apparent normally, but I’m a history buff and I almost became an archaeologist instead of lawyer some years ago, so don’t have to tell me about bowing and deference not being the core of chivalry–that’s something I’ve ranted about in a couple of threads and got flak for (not in the least for dispelling romantic illusions about what the middle ages really looked like), pointing out the first ideal was about good, honourable and respectful treatment of all people, especially women, sure, but no creepy stuff that borders on idolatry that developed under the influence of Islamic (heretical within Islam anyway) poets from Andalusia and too much sun to some helmets, to the point I was understood to be an enemy of chivalry at all. Subservience and idolatry was but a carricature of chivalry which developed around the time noble knights started taking vows in front of stuffed swans and pheasants. (Example.) I I stay very clear of crossing those lines because I simply hate that kind of thing and sometimes I get the impression women dislike these limits, actually.

So it’s gotta be something different.

 

[whatevergirl]

The Bucket says…“Dial back the part where you love puppies, babies and respect her entire being.Just don’t mention it at all.”

You’re funny, Bucket.

 

[The_Bucket]

And just a show of hands…how many men here typically look for a strong, PRACTICING Catholic girl? Yes, she should have other qualities that you like…you need to be attracted to her, we went over that. But, are you TRULY seeking out girls in the practicing Catholic community OR are you just seeking who attracts you and hoping and praying she’s Catholic, and if not…you’ll deal with it later? Be honest. I ask, because a PRACTICING Catholic young lady won’t jerk you around. So…only date in that circle, and the chances of being jerked around will dissipate. Not saying you won’t ever be hurt (sometimes relationships hurt, break ups hurt)…but, someone who puts God FIRST, will wish the best for others, and will conduct herself in a way that isn’t like the secular world. And there are beautiful Catholic girls everywhere…at mass, I’m amazed at how many young women there are who seem single, and are stunners. So…food for thought.

Again…trust me.

Totally agree again. But just because good Catholic girls won’t jerk you around and use you doesn’t mean that there isn’t a game to be played and a dance to be danced. It’ll just be a good chaste game/dance… but if you don’t want to play or can’t dance, you’ll lose.

 

[whatevergirl]

*You know what I think the problem is chev? You spell analyze with an ‘s’ instead of a ‘z.’

Kidding. *

 

[whatevergirl]

Totally agree again. But just because good Catholic girls won’t jerk you around and use you doesn’t mean that there isn’t a game to be played and a dance to be danced. It’ll just be a good chaste game/dance… but if you don’t want to play or can’t dance, you’ll lose.

*It’s not really a game…it’s courtship…and yes you’re right…you can sit on the bench and watch life go by, or you can step up and get involved. To chev’s credit, it seems like he is doing that…but, finding the wrong girls…thus, is why I threw the question out there to the group…are you MAINLY seeking out girls in the Catholic community?

And to the group–if not, why not? *

 

[The_Bucket]

B I want a companion, not a broken addict or a trained pet…

So it’s gotta be something different.

Well there you go then. If your problem isn’t getting sucked into the friends zone but that you’re not meeting the right women… go meet better women.

Not every girl in the singles group at church are weirdos, though plenty are. So I like whatevergirl’s play better. Just go to Mass frequently and look for single girls your age that tend to go to Mass a lot. Then just walk up to them and use whatever cold approach you use that works with the rest of the world. I’m sure you’ll end up with better results because you’ll start with a superior quality woman.

 

[The_Bucket]

Oh and since it’s not really courtship anymore and whatevergirl doesn’t like it being called a "game’ then I’ll just use the most apt metaphor. It’s a fencing match where the hopeful result is to eventually get hit but one must parry well enough to demonstrate that the foe is worthy of striking you with his/her foil… of love.

Or something like that.