The Failure of "Public" Education

[Ridgerunner]

I can’t speak to your daughter’s experience, but generally SPED students are far and away the most expensive group of students on a school campus. Between their teachers, aides, therapists, nurses, physical accommodations (like adapted playground equipment), adapted learning equipment (audio-taped textbooks, large print textbooks, Braille textbooks, etc.), speech and language therapists, and psychologists, their education comes with a price tag unmatched by any other population. **At the same time, one needs to realize that those staff people serve several, not just one. Personally, I think it has been a great mistake to make all these attempts at “mainstreaming” people like my daughter. By my observation, it is not effective, is largely based on fantasy, and ought to be replaced by specialized institutions instead of being foisted off on public schools. **

Put 50 of my Catholic school classmates in a room, and a teacher could get something done. Put 50 of today’s at-risk kids in a room and you might as well install an armed guard with a first aide kit at the door and call it a day because nothing is going to happen except fights and vandalism and socializing. This is why urban public school teachers push for smaller class sizes. If that’s what “at risk” kids are like, then perhaps the disciplining is the problem, not the class size. At one time, a huge percentage of the kids taught by Christian Brothers would be considered “at risk” today. But the Christian Brothers were tough and wouldn’t put up with antisocial behavior.

About the technology…

Do you know what would happen if public schools pulled out their Smartboards from classrooms and went back to a paper grading system?

For one thing, the business community would come down like a ton of bricks and accuse schools of - once again - failing to prepare students for a technology-driven future. The vocal, more affluent parents would lose their minds because they wouldn’t be able to check their student’s grades and attendance in real time. NCAA would go batty because they’ve come to depend on being able to check an athlete’s eligibility online, 24/7.

And - done right - there’s nothing wrong with a kids making a mobile about themselves. It requires imagination and planning on the kid’s part. It’s a way of recognizing kids as being a part of a larger group, which is very important socially and emotionally. It can be a language-development tool. Kids love seeing something they’ve done on display, and finishing a project holds them accountable for their use of time. And it can be fun. I know f-u-n is a dirty word in many circle, but kids need time to enjoy and play, even the teenagers. Especially the teenagers, I think. One can’t do fun craft projects all day, every day, but done right they can be some of the most meaningful and memorable experience kids have in school. I can still remember the huge Declaration of Independence mural I did in 11th grade US history class at my Catholic high school, and this was in the late 1970s. I remember the time of year I worked on it (spring) as well the the sister’s name who taught the class. If I close my eyes I can still see what it looked like. Most importantly, that creative, crafty mural is one of the reasons that today I love reading and learning about history.

Luna

Please allow me to disagree with you about the merits of uber-teching the teaching process. To this very day, many private schools don’t use that, and (strange to tell) even law schools are still largely book, chalk and blackboard. Are we to assume they learn nothing there?

And I don’t think spending time on self-asserting mobiles in English class is teaching children anything. I find it particularly offensive when the kids are not required to read much of anything, can’t write and can’t spell. One of my daughters had a teaching fellowship in grad school, grading undergraduate work. The literacy achievement levels are just awful. And I am appalled that playtime in public schools happens constantly. It isn’t a once-a-year thing. It’s constant.

I realize this will not meet with your agreement, but when I was in school back in the “books and blackboards” era, neither I nor my peers needed murals or mobiles or anything of the kind. We were expected to use our minds to picture this era of history or the meaning of that poem, or how, exactly, the Teutonic migrations affected the map and cultures of Europe. Did we really need to make a papier-mache cap with wings or horns in order to understand what Vikings were? No we didn’t. But that’s the sort of thing that goes on so much now, to the degree that they teach kids anything about Vikings at all.

 

[sedonaman]

… We have had every possible effort you could have from reform from within. It is not just in schools it is in any area** reform has to come from outside it has to come from competition**.

The reason that reform must come from without is that no one dealt four aces asks for a re-deal.

… In higher education the customer picks its school, you have choice that makes all the difference in the world. …

This is a bad example, at least today it is. There is about as much choice in higher ed today as there was in buying a car before imports entered the scene. Just look at the schools’ mission statements. They all say something like, “affect social change” or “advocate for social justice”, and then there are the ubiquitous speech codes ostensibly to protect ethnic groups from being “offended” when in actual practice they are enforced selectively. They are a tacit admission of their intent to persecute. An then there is the holy grail of them all: the desperate quest for “diversity”, except diversity of thought, that is.

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“The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in numerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false.” – Historian Paul Johnson

 

[Ridgerunner]

The reason that reform must come from without is that no one dealt four aces asks for a re-deal.

This is a bad example, at least today it is. There is about as much choice in higher ed today as there was in buying a car before imports entered the scene. Just look at the schools’ mission statements. They all say something like, “affect social change” or “advocate for social justice”, and then there are the ubiquitous speech codes ostensibly to protect ethnic groups from being “offended” when in actual practice they are enforced selectively. They are a tacit admission of their intent to persecute. An then there is the holy grail of them all: the desperate quest for “diversity”, except diversity of thought, that is.

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“The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in numerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false.” – Historian Paul Johnson

I’m reminded of my neice and her husband, who live in an affluent suburb of a large city. They wanted the very best pre-school for their child. One choice was a Catholic preschool. Another was a secular, but selective, private school. They chose the latter because they wanted “diversity”. There is, you see, a smattering of Asian and Black upper middle class children there, whereas there are none of either in the Catholic school. I couldn’t help but think that they were not selecting a very “diverse” “diversity”, since every kid there would be upper middle class, regardless of race. In the Catholic preschool, there would at least have been some chance of economic and social diversity. So, what is her child really going to gain from all that “diversity” in the selective secular institution?

Sometimes, “social wisdoms” almost make a person want to throw his hands up.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Please allow me to disagree with you about the merits of uber-teching the teaching process. To this very day, many private schools don’t use that, and (strange to tell) even law schools are still largely book, chalk and blackboard. Are we to assume they learn nothing there?

Notice I never said anything about student learning and outcomes. My arguments all pointed to expectations on the parts of parents and college/athletic officials.

In the end we can go back and forth all day about the merits of technology in education, but the fact is it’s here to stay. Anyone arguing that schools with technology should take it out and replace it with chalkboards and paper ledgers would be laughed out of the room. (Not that that should stop anyone, necessarily.) The simple fact is that once students, parents, teachers, administrators, and colleges have access to technology, they come to expect it and would reject going back to the old ways.

Luna

 

[Ridgerunner]

Notice I never said anything about student learning and outcomes. My arguments all pointed to expectations on the parts of parents and college/athletic officials.

In the end we can go back and forth all day about the merits of technology in education, but the fact is it’s here to stay. Anyone arguing that schools with technology should take it out and replace it with chalkboards and paper ledgers would be laughed out of the room. (Not that that should stop anyone, necessarily.) The simple fact is that once students, parents, teachers, administrators, and colleges have access to technology, they come to expect it and would reject going back to the old ways.

Luna

But then, private schools can do largely what they want to do.

 

[sedonaman]

I’m reminded of my neice and her husband, who live in an affluent suburb of a large city. They wanted the very best pre-school for their child. One choice was a Catholic preschool. Another was a secular, but selective, private school. They chose the latter because they wanted “diversity”. There is, you see, a smattering of Asian and Black upper middle class children there, whereas there are none of either in the Catholic school.

I would wager that it was because there are relatively few [if any] Asian and Black upper middle class Catholics, or few Asian and Black upper middle class non-Catholics looking to expose their kids to diversity that includes Catholicism.

I couldn’t help but think that they were not selecting a very “diverse” “diversity”, since every kid there would be upper middle class, regardless of race. In the Catholic preschool, there would at least have been some chance of economic and social diversity. So, what is her child really going to gain from all that “diversity” in the selective secular institution?

Sometimes, “social wisdoms” almost make a person want to throw his hands up.

This is why liberals win. Traditionalists give up and go home way too soon because they realize there is absolutely no consensus of thought possible. Then there is no one remaining to object to their programs.

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The indispensable condition for our personal spiritual survival is that we say NO to the prevailing values of the liberal order and that we KEEP saying NO.

 

[jmcrae]

But then, private schools can do largely what they want to do.

Yes, they can. Including hand out slate boards to the students and expecting them to memorize as they go - speaking of going back to the old ways. It would save a lot of time cramming for exams, anyway.

But I don’t expect to see any kids cutting their own pens or making their own paper any time soon.

 

[ACCT]

Parental Power and Freedom

*Most people can’t afford to pay twice for education, once in taxes and again in private school tuition. School choice gives parents financial power and flexibility by letting them use public funds set aside for education to send their children to the school of their choice—public or private, near or far, religious or secular—whatever works best for their children. In every part of the country, children are assigned to a public school based on where their parents live. **School districts, in nearly all cases, control local monopolies *that dictate the terms and conditions of education for students and schools. School choice gives parents the freedom to choose a school. - Friedman Foundation

 

[PaulinVA]

ACCT, I believe that you have quoted enough Friedman that you have gone beyond fair use. I’m sure there’s a whole book in this thread.

You’re quotations haven’t answered my questions from a few days ago. If a district goes fully voucher, how are the special ed kids and mandated ESL and all of those others taken care of? The state/county/district *MUST *educate those kids for free.

A voucher for the average cost to educate a child is meaningless. Each kid (or group of kids) actually uses a different amount of resources. The IB kids consume more resources than the general education kids. The special kids consumer* WAY *more than the average. So, is there talk of a classification of vouchers? The average just won’t cut it for a lot of kids.

I find it hard to believe that a non profit would find they could break even by creating a voucher school that would include the high-dollar special kids.

And, something not mentioned in any of your quotes is how is the voucher system regulated. Now, I believe in less government, but my experience watching the D.C. charter schools accross the river is that these schools need to be watched like a hawk. I’m not talking the established Catholic schools - I’m talking about the group of people getting together, renting a public school building, taking vouchers, and providing an education.

Remember, the “regulation” in the form of administrators are cooked into the average cost per pupil. I would venture to say that the charter schools need government regulators lest the parents be hoodwinked and the children uneducated. Don’t answer “market forces” will take care of it - that’s too late.

 

[ACCT]

ACCT, I believe that you have quoted enough Friedman that you have gone beyond fair use. I’m sure there’s a whole book in this thread.

You’re quotations haven’t answered my questions from a few days ago. If a district goes fully voucher, how are the special ed kids and mandated ESL and all of those others taken care of? The state/county/district *MUST *educate those kids for free.

A voucher for the average cost to educate a child is meaningless. Each kid (or group of kids) actually uses a different amount of resources. The IB kids consume more resources than the general education kids. The special kids consumer* WAY *more than the average. So, is there talk of a classification of vouchers? The average just won’t cut it for a lot of kids.

I find it hard to believe that a non profit would find they could break even by creating a voucher school that would include the high-dollar special kids.

And, something not mentioned in any of your quotes is how is the voucher system regulated. Now, I believe in less government, but my experience watching the D.C. charter schools accross the river is that these schools need to be watched like a hawk. I’m not talking the established Catholic schools - I’m talking about the group of people getting together, renting a public school building, taking vouchers, and providing an education.

Remember, the “regulation” in the form of administrators are cooked into the average cost per pupil. I would venture to say that the charter schools need government regulators lest the parents be hoodwinked and the children uneducated. Don’t answer “market forces” will take care of it - that’s too late.

I think that the Friedman Foundation quotes answered most of your questions. I am sorry that the answers were not in the detail that you wanted.

 

[PaulinVA]

I think that the Friedman Foundation quotes answered most of your questions. I am sorry that the answers were not in the detail that you wanted.

No, unfortunately the quotes are polemic in nature and don’t provide any actual details about implementation.

He admits that there has been no district going 100% voucher, which means that it is still just a theory. Of course partial vouchers are beneficial, but at the cost of the remaining public school children.

There needs to be a large district successfully going all voucher before the voucher advocates actually have a proven argument. You need to address regulation, the remaining public school shell, how public school buildings are emptied and rented, etc.

 

[ACCT]

Friends, it is time for me to end contributing to this thread. I am not interested in pushing anyone to believe something that they do not want to believe.

Everyone has their line drawn in the sand. Most of us have to learn the hard way. Those of us who do not listen will have to feel.

God gave us all a free will. I respect that.

 

[sedonaman]

… If a district goes fully voucher, how are the special ed kids and mandated ESL and all of those others taken care of? The state/county/district *MUST *educate those kids for free. …

So the alternative is to reduce all the students to the least common denominator. This is always the result of the typical Leftist approach because Leftism doesn’t raise the lowly up; it tears down the successful. "If incomes are equalize, they will be equalized at a low level.” – Economist Vilfredo Pareto, c. 1925] Øbama is currently trying to sell us on a tax increase so that “everyone will have a fair shot.” He conveniently overlooks the fact that education is supposed to give everyone that fair shot. The Dems destroyed education so now we must have a tax increase to fix what they caused.

Apparently, you missed the part about vouchers being only half the cost of the full amount currently spent on educating a student *. The schools would still get the other half. So if a school was completely abandoned by a mass exodus, it would still get half its funding to do nothing. But, if what you say is true, i.e., that private schools would reject the special ed students, the public schools would have half their total budget to take care of the needs of the special ed students.

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“We believe that the school should not create differences between students who know more and students who know less.” – Parents against the Gifted and Talented Education [GATE] program.*

 

[PaulinVA]

Apparently, you missed the part about** vouchers being only half the cost of the full amount** currently spent on educating a student . The schools would still get the other half. So if a school was completely abandoned by a mass exodus, it would still get half its funding to do nothing. But, if what you say is true, i.e., that private schools would reject the special ed students, the public schools would have half their total budget to take care of the needs of the special ed students.

In whose plan? Are you talking about a specific district’s voucher plan, or your own?

A voucher, I would imagine, must be accepted by any school, public or private, for the full cost of the education of that child. What happens when that child needs special education? The county/district by law has to provide services to that child. Does the special ed teacher come into the private school? Does the child go to a public “base” school? They “vouchered out” of the public system, but still are required by law to have services from them.

It is very complicated at the 100% voucher level. At 10%, it is very easy to understand. But, isn’t the way to reform education to reform education instead of creating a new bureaucracy to manage the voucher system and the new private schools?

Oh, and income and parental education level are the greatest predictor of student success, not which school they go to.

 

[septimine]

Then they need to stay out of K-12 education.

For-profit companies have done more to destroy K-12 education for poor and marginalized kids get in the last ten years than all the innept politicians and school boards and district administrators and classroom teachers put together. One phrase: No Child Left Behind. There is a direct, measured, documented correlation between family income level and how much a child spends every school day on standardized test prep. We spend billions and billions of our tax money every year on NCLB junk, and kids from low-income communities can spend up to three hours every day on non-enriching, skill-drill-kill worksheets in the hopes they’ll look good on a battery of multiple-choice tests for the politicians and business community. Public schools or charter schools, doesn’t matter. If a kid is poor chances are very good her school has done away with art, music, and physical education and huge chunks of social studies and science time to give extended time to canned reading and math programs. No matter what the neuroscience says about how kids learn, the canned programs are profitable for the companies that produce them and they enable administrators to show the politicians and business leaders that they’re “doing something” to bring up test scores. No one even cares anymore that these test scores are both unreliable and invalid measures of what children know and can do. Never mind the kids seldmon learning anything meaningful of these scripted, canned programs. If they test well that’s all the counts anymore.

Luna

I disagree.

If you look at the 8th grade exams given to your great great grandparents a century ago, compared to even 1980 or so before all of the charter schools came on the scene, you’ll notice how much more education these 8th graders had.

Try one:
barefootsworld.net/1895finalexam.html

That’s from 1985. I doubt many private school grads could make it to 1895’s 8th grade – it might even be tough for some college grads. Compare it to a test of english for 7th graders in 1980 – before the charter schools “messed up” education.

cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/rtqgr7ela.pdf

It’s not even close – even when kids today are asked questions in school, most of the “work” is reading the answers in order to recognize the proper response, something that simply wasn’t done in the 1-room schools of 1895 in which the same children were expected to write an essay. Also, the language in the 1980’s test is much simpler than in 1895, and the knowledge required is much less complex. Defining and explaining “orthography” and applying diacritical marks to words is much harder than “find the theme” even if the answer isn’t sitting on the test page.

 

[JimG]

Notice I never said anything about student learning and outcomes. My arguments all pointed to expectations on the parts of parents and college/athletic officials.

In the end we can go back and forth all day about the merits of technology in education, but the fact is it’s here to stay. Anyone arguing that schools with technology should take it out and replace it with chalkboards and paper ledgers would be laughed out of the room. (Not that that should stop anyone, necessarily.) The simple fact is that once students, parents, teachers, administrators, and colleges have access to technology, they come to expect it and would reject going back to the old ways.

Luna

I suspect that they wouldn’t be laughed out of the room, if non-technology oriented schools produced graduates who were knowledgeable, literate, able read with comprehension and write with clarity, and had well rounded knowledge. That seems to be something that technology is unable to accomplish, and yet that schools in previous generations routinely accomplished.

 

[jmcrae]

I suspect that they wouldn’t be laughed out of the room, if non-technology oriented schools produced graduates who were knowledgeable, literate, able read with comprehension and write with clarity, and had well rounded knowledge. That seems to be something that technology is unable to accomplish, and yet that schools in previous generations routinely accomplished.

That’s because we kept the information in our heads; not on our computer hard drives.

 

[JimG]

That’s because we kept the information in our heads; not on our computer hard drives.

Yes, and not only that. Not being distracted by gadgets, we were forced to take the time to think.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, and not only that. Not being distracted by gadgets, we were forced to take the time to think.

We had the time to think. I remember spending hours in my bedroom reading for fun, and writing for fun. I’d written five novels by the time I was ten years old. (They never saw the light of day - I’m pretty sure I burned them all when I got a little older.)

I also spent hours out in the playground with my friends doing “nothing.” (Practicing our French, playing on the monkey bars, giving the smaller kids rides on the merry go round, talking about rocks and dinosaurs, kicking a soccer ball around … )

Today, kids are so over-scheduled with sports and other organized activities that it’s a wonder they can remember their own names (except for getting yelled at all the time).

 

[JimG]

We had the time to think. I remember spending hours in my bedroom reading for fun, and writing for fun. I’d written five novels by the time I was ten years old. (They never saw the light of day - I’m pretty sure I burned them all when I got a little older.)

I also spent hours out in the playground with my friends doing “nothing.” (Practicing our French, playing on the monkey bars, giving the smaller kids rides on the merry go round, talking about rocks and dinosaurs, kicking a soccer ball around … )

Today, kids are so over-scheduled with sports and other organized activities that it’s a wonder they can remember their own names (except for getting yelled at all the time).

Ah yes, I recall the same thing. Having absolutely nothing to do was a great learning experience. We actually walked all over town, sometimes taking the bus, just for the heck of it, took walks in the woods, got lost, found our way back. Nobody had a cell phone! It was great!