The Failure of "Public" Education

[TheRealJuliane]

Instead of vouchers and the like, couldn’t one argue that the failure of a public education isn’t necessarily the education itself, but the lack of encouragement and follow-through by the parents?

I don’t have children, but I attended a public school. School is what you make of it, but my parents also made sure I could read in kindergarten, made sure I could write and write properly in cursive (something that’s not even taught anymore ~ heaven forbid!!) and took interest in my school work and extracurriculars.

I’m sorry, but at some point we have to stop blaming the schools and the teachers and point the finger where it really belongs.

There’s only so much parents can do - yes, the problem is also the teachers and the unions, but even more than those, the HUGE federal bureaucracy. If parents are going to be essentially doing the work, why send the kids to government schools to be indoctrinated, why not homeschool?

The government school system is a MESS, by and large.

 

[ACCT]

I am not advocating shutting the doors of public education, just opening more doors of private education.

The** parents will vote with their school vouchers**. They will decide which public schools will stay open and which public schools will close. Additionally,** many new private schools will open.** New schools will give parents even more choices. Why should the state have a monopoly on education?

 

[PatriceA]

I am not advocating shutting the doors of public education, just opening more doors of private education.

The** parents will vote with their school vouchers**. They will decide which public schools will stay open and which public schools will close. Additionally,** many new private schools will open.** New schools will give parents even more choices. Why should the state have a monopoly on education?

OR decide which PRIVATE schools should close.

 

[sedonaman]

OR decide which PRIVATE schools should close.

Private schools are already subject to market forces. If one was not better than free public schools, why would parents spend more of their money supporting that which they could get for free? IOW, it would have already gone out of business.

 

[PatriceA]

Private schools are already subject to market forces. If one was not better than free public schools, why would parents spend more of their money supporting that which they could get for free? IOW, it would have already gone out of business.

Some are barely getting by. Part of the arguement I hear for vouchers is that the schools that are struggling would overflow with new students if only the parents could use vouchers. That’s not necessarily the case. I think some people that think vouchers would solve the problem of some Catholic schools being closed in my area aren’t really looking at the real reasons these schools may be closing. At least in my diocese, parents are already determining that some private schools should close, the vouchers wouldn’t make any difference because some private schools are just subpar or inadequate education choices.

I haven’t made up my mind on school vouchers. I hear pros and cons on both sides. But I do think people on either side may be quite surprised on how people would use the vouchers if they were issued. I do believe our local parish school still wouldn’t survive because many of the problems they have can’t be fixed with more financial aid. Can’t throw money on a problem if the administration won’t take the time to look at their own administration and discipline problems.

 

[sedonaman]

…I haven’t made up my mind on school vouchers. I hear pros and cons on both sides. But I do think people on either side may be quite surprised on how people would use the vouchers if they were issued. I do believe our local parish school still wouldn’t survive because many of the problems they have can’t be fixed with more financial aid. Can’t throw money on a problem if the administration won’t take the time to look at their own administration and discipline problems.

I have mixed emotions about them, myself. I fear politics will infect private schools much as they have public.

“GATE-closing plan stirs parental debate at Lincoln Middle School”
By Adam Klawonn
*UNION-TRIBUNE *STAFF WRITER
May 19, 2005
signonsandiego.com/news/education/20050519-9999-1mi19vusd.html

VISTA, CA – Parents of Latino students at Vista’s most ethnically diverse school are incensed over a campaign by other parents to preserve an honors program there.
…

The proposal to dismantle the Gifted and Talented Education, or GATE, program at the school is supported by the Latino parents, opposed by parents of the GATE students.
…
“All students should be treated equally,” Latino parents said in a letter to the board and district administrators. "We believe that the school should not create differences between students who know more and students who know less." [Emphasis added.]

Do we want to open another Pandora’s Box for the ACLU’s feeding frenzy?

 

[buffalo]

I don’t know. In my school system, there are people, “aides”, that shadow individual kids (for medical issues, as an example) to allow for them get an education. There are whole alternative high schools.

If the cost was not considerable, then Catholic schools would provide the service as well.

It has to do with mandates and population size as a percentage.

 

[Lujack]

Per-pupil cost is a bad measure.

Since my college term ends before the public school year does, I’d usually work as a substitute teacher or teacher’s aide in the public schools for a few weeks at the end of the year. As an aide a couple of times, I subbed in a classroom for the severely autistic (and I do mean severely; non-verbal, one of the kids was deaf…it was a rough day). We had a teacher and two aides in the room for seven students, and to be perfectly honest we probably could have used a third aide. I’ve substituted as a teacher, even as a kindergarten teacher by myself with almost thirty five-year-olds, but I’ve never worked as hard as I did on those days.

Cognitively disabled class, same thing-a teacher and two aids for 10 kids.

Those kids send the per-pupil cost through the roof, and Catholic schools don’t educate those kids (not that there’s anything wrong with them not doing it, they don’t have the resources).

 

[ACCT]

There is present discrimination against parents who send their children to nonpublic schools. Universal vouchers would end the inequity of using tax funds to school some children but not others.

 

[Lujack]

There is present discrimination against parents who send their children to nonpublic schools. Universal vouchers would end the inequity of using tax funds to school some children but not others.

Why is there discrimination against parents who send their children to non-public schools?

Tax funds are used to establish a public school system; many choose not to use it, to use it for some parts of their education but not for others, or for all of it.

Its been that way for a very long time, and the Catholic school system achieved its period of greatest scope and success with far less funding than it has right now (during the 1950’s, when over half of all Catholic children were in Catholic schools).

I was in public school up until 5th grade and in Catholic school from 6th to 12th. My brothers were in public school up to 8th grade and went to a Catholic high school. My parents have voted yes on the public school budget every year.

Supporting our Catholic schools is our duty as Catholics; people today seem to grumble about this far more than they should, in two different ways-some demand vouchers, while others don’t donate anything because they are “paying enough in tuition already”.

 

[St_Francis]

I like the idea of vouchers in that it promotes competition among the schools to pay the best teachers well, and to train their less able teachers.

One worry I have, though, is that some schools would forego the more difficult job of finding or training good teachers to improve basic skills, and simply start offering sports programs to attract the kids.

Together with vouchers, there needs to be universal testing (whether administered by the government, or some other impartial body - perhaps the insurance companies - to ensure that every child is reaching their appropriate grade level in reading, writing, mathematics, history, civics, and the arts and sciences. Individual scores would not be made public, but each school’s overall scores would be made public in the newspapers, with detailed reports, but again without naming names - for example, they would say, 35 out of 40 children in third grade achieved less than 50% of correct answers on the grade 3 math exam at such and such school, etc.

This could easily be handled by private firms, the way many consumer goods are vetted and rated by Consumer Reports, and the way students are rated by the SATs.

 

[ACCT]

This could easily be handled by private firms, the way many consumer goods are vetted and rated by Consumer Reports, and the way students are rated by the SATs.

 

[ACCT]

The church-state issue: Vouchers would go to parents, not to schools. Under the GI bills, veterans have been free to attend Catholic or other colleges and, so far as we know, no First Amendment issue has ever been raised.

 

[sedonaman]

The church-state issue: Vouchers would go to parents, not to schools. Under the GI bills, veterans have been free to attend Catholic or other colleges and, so far as we know, no First Amendment issue has ever been raised.

The best proposal I heard of is that the voucher would be a scholarship given to the student.

 

[ACCT]

The possibility of fraud: The voucher would have to be spent in an **approved school **or teaching establishment and could be redeemed for cash only by such schools.

 

[ACCT]

Milton Friedman’s conclusion in his book, Free to Choose.

“The two ideas of human freedom and economic freedom working together came to their greatest fruition in the United States…We have been forgetting the basic truth that the greatest threat to human freedom is the concentration of power, whether in the hands of government or anyone else. We have persuaded ourselves that it is safe to grant power, provided it is for good purposes.”

“We are again recognizing the dangers of an over-governed society, coming to understand that good objectives can be perverted by bad means, that reliance on the freedom of people to control their own lives in accordance with their own values is the surest way to achieve the full potential of a great society.”

 

[ACCT]

So you’re equating the “failure” of public schooling based just on the costs per student? Seems to me if you want to say public school is failing, you need more criteria to back that theory up such as test scores, extra curricular activities and the overall school environment between public schools and private schools.

I can tell you from personal experience, the cost per student at our parish school was significantly lower than our public school but it showed. The test scores were lower, the school building was deteriorating, general school supplies were lacking. If more money was spent per student at the school, we might not have left.

The local Catholic high school though, the costs per student is at the same level as the public school.

It is very difficult to compete with “free” public education. It costs Louisiana taxpayers $6,500 per student per 9 months to educate a child in the public school system. That is $162,500 per classroom (25 students). Cameron parish starts a teacher out at $30,500 (add $500 for a teacher with a Master’s degree). Where does the other $132,000 go?

A $6,500 school voucher per student would add competition to the system. **There would be an immediate increase in the number of schools, and the increase in demand for teachers would raise their salaries. **** It would be a win-win situation for all except the teachers’ unions and “professional” local and state school administrators! **

 

[sedonaman]

… It costs Louisiana taxpayers $6,500 per student per 9 months to educate a child in the public school system. That is $162,500 per classroom (25 students). Cameron parish starts a teacher out at $30,500 (add $500 for a teacher with a Master’s degree). Where does the other $132,000 go?
…

In all fairness, providing transportation for the students must be counted, which I’m sure isn’t cheap. When I was a supervisor and costed out jobs, I had to count the full cost of the employee, which included overhead, things like management, supervision, training, Social Security, taxes, paid leave, retirement, facilities [offices], and overtime. A rule of thumb we used was double the employee’s salary. Then there is the army of administrators: those who are tasked with keeping the employer legal. There was a documentary on TV the other night called “The War Against Children” which showed how schools are run more like prisons than schools, with their surveillance cameras and police patrols. Of course, this was not a consequence of the diversity machine.

 

[manualman]

Wow, $6,500? I wish. Our local public district is blowing $13,000+ per student on total expenditures (staff, transport, facilities, etc).

At one point in time, IL lawmakers did appreciate the win-win scenario created by private school parents and we DO still have a small income tax credit. But it has been badly eroded in value over time by not adjusting for inflation to the point where it is no longer a significant help to those of use who voluntarily remove X * $13,000 from the public tax burden every year. In my case that’s $39,000 I save the school district taxpayers every year. Not even a thank you card…

 

[ACCT]

It always shocks Americans when I inform them that free and compulsory schooling is one of the ten “planks” of the Communist Manifesto and that public schooling is a key aspect of the Soviet, Chinese, and Cuban ways of life. Yet, even after discovering these little-known facts, they continue to believe that public schooling in those countries is socialism while public schooling in the United States is free enterprise. Let’s examine the principles of public schooling.

The public schooling system, like all coercive redistributive programs, is founded on the Marxian concept of “from each according to ability, to each according to need.” The political system is used to plunder the wealth and savings of everyone, even those who don’t have children, to pay for the schooling of other people’s children.

The plain truth is that public schooling is also the absolutely perfect embodiment of the socialist concept of central planning. The “education” of each child — from teachers to textbooks to curricula to time in school — is planned for him by a central political agency, either on a local, state, or national basis. The government, not the parents, controls the “education” of the child.

The tragic failure of socialism in public schooling is as well known as the failure of socialism all over the world. Yet, Americans just won’t let go. What is the common answer to the horrific results of public schooling? Plunder the citizenry and distribute the loot to an even greater extent!

What is the answer to socialism in public schools? Freedom! Why not separate school and state in the same way that our ancestors separated church and state? The Founding Fathers trusted freedom in religious activities, and look how blessed we are that government no longer subsidizes or controls our religious activities (or that of our children). How would you instead like a voucher system with public and private churches? How about competition between public and private churches? If anybody should trust freedom in education, it should be the Americans who have such a wonderful legacy of religious liberty.