The Failure of "Public" Education

[mitex]

The United States Department of Education has admitted that the average cost of public education per pupil is slightly more than double the cost per pupil of a private education, even though public schools have more students per teacher. Thus, there was no economy of scale as the per pupil cost should theoretically decline the more students there are per teacher.

Our total cost per student in our Catholic school, before any payments or subsidizations, is in the $4K range. That is less than half what the state is paying for one of the neighborhood kids.

Education is a right. Your Church affirms that.

 

[septimine]

It always shocks Americans when I inform them that free and compulsory schooling is one of the ten “planks” of the Communist Manifesto and that public schooling is a key aspect of the Soviet, Chinese, and Cuban ways of life. Yet, even after discovering these little-known facts, they continue to believe that public schooling in those countries is socialism while public schooling in the United States is free enterprise. Let’s examine the principles of public schooling.

The public schooling system, like all coercive redistributive programs, is founded on the Marxian concept of “from each according to ability, to each according to need.” The political system is used to plunder the wealth and savings of everyone, even those who don’t have children, to pay for the schooling of other people’s children.

The plain truth is that public schooling is also the absolutely perfect embodiment of the socialist concept of central planning. The “education” of each child — from teachers to textbooks to curricula to time in school — is planned for him by a central political agency, either on a local, state, or national basis. The government, not the parents, controls the “education” of the child.

The tragic failure of socialism in public schooling is as well known as the failure of socialism all over the world. Yet, Americans just won’t let go. What is the common answer to the horrific results of public schooling? Plunder the citizenry and distribute the loot to an even greater extent!

What is the answer to socialism in public schools? Freedom! Why not separate school and state in the same way that our ancestors separated church and state? The Founding Fathers trusted freedom in religious activities, and look how blessed we are that government no longer subsidizes or controls our religious activities (or that of our children). How would you instead like a voucher system with public and private churches? How about competition between public and private churches? If anybody should trust freedom in education, it should be the Americans who have such a wonderful legacy of religious liberty.

I’ll agree with you, but I also tend to suspect that the main point of “public education” is values, rather than education in the basics. The schools are good at making little secualrists, of making sure that no one takes religion seriously, no one knows what the Bible says unless that child has parents who make a serious point of teaching their children such things. Kids come out of these schools thuroughly socialized to accept socialist thought, the goodness of government, and authoritarian control. Case in point is the bully problem – it wasn’t a problem in the past because a kid who was being bullied would fight back. He would either do so himself or get a group of kids to help him. Now kids have been taught to think that only an authority can solve a bully problem. He’s likely been graded on the curve in a dozen or more classes, and in the ones that he isn’t, a grade of 70% is “passing”. Under such grading systems, a kid learns quickly that being a standout is either going to be punished or at minimum not rewarded. So why push yourself – you get nothing. If you’re being graded on the curve, you get what everyone gets.

It’s not that public schools are bad, it’s that they’re if anything too good.

 

[jmcrae]

The possibility of fraud: The voucher would have to be spent in an **approved school **or teaching establishment and could be redeemed for cash only by such schools.

I would say that it can’t be redeemed for cash at all - it can only be redeemed for a seat in the classroom best suited to that child’s ability to perform, within that school building, for the term of that school year. If people could redeem them for cash, they wouldn’t send their kids to school at all; they’d just cash the vouchers and spend them on something else.

 

[ACCT]

The economic class issue: Some have argued that the great value of the public school has been as a melting pot, in which rich and poor, native- and foreign-born, back and white have learned to live together. ** That image…is almost entirely false for large cities.** There, the public school has fostered residential stratification, by tying the kind and cost of schooling to residential location. It is no accident that most of the country’s outstanding public schools are in high-income enclaves.

 

[ACCT]

Government (“Public”) Education and Functional Illiterates

I divide people into two groups: those that can count change and those who cannot count change. This division is highlighted every summer when I take a vacation.

I empty my pockets of change every night before I go to bed. I take all of this change with me every summer when I take a vacation. I have learned the hard way never to give a cashier more than one dollar in change. They cannot count it. If I give less than one dollar in change, the cashier just puts it into the cash register without counting it.

Most things have been “dumbed-down” for our high school functional illiterates, even our state colleges. Forty percent of the freshmen in college either fail college algebra, or drop with an F. The same percentage holds true in sophomore micro economics. (These percentages come from the professors in our local state college.) Many college professors have resorted to all sorts of gimmicks to help raise the grade average of their students. Many professors actually have a review for the test, which is actually a veiled attempt to go over the questions on the test.

I guess we should expect this from a “public” educational system that is administered by the state governments. The cornerstone of accounting is internal control. Internal control exists in accounting for private business; however, there is no internal control in government accounting. Quality goes down and prices go up in public monopolies. “Public” education is no different. Efficiency and effectiveness are hallmarks of private business, not government administration. The highest ACT scores were in 1963, the year that prayer was taken out of public schools. ACT scores have been going down every since.

 

[ignatius777]

The United States Department of Education has admitted that the average cost of public education per pupil is slightly more than double the cost per pupil of a private education, even though public schools have more students per teacher. Thus, there was no economy of scale as the per pupil cost should theoretically decline the more students there are per teacher.

Our total cost per student in our Catholic school, before any payments or subsidizations, is in the $4K range. That is less than half what the state is paying for one of the neighborhood kids.

I dont think it really matters how much we pay per student if the outcome is a student who has actually learned something and is prepared, through the education they were given, to contribute to society. If they are not preapred then we have a problem. The real question is are we getting our money’s worth?

 

[ACCT]

I dont think it really matters how much we pay per student if the outcome is a student who has actually learned something and is prepared, through the education they were given, to contribute to society. If they are not preapred then we have a problem. The real question is are we getting our money’s worth?

There are no longer any public schools. “Public schools” are government schools. Government administration of schools is both ineffective and inefficient. As in any government monopoly, costs go up and quality goes down.

The answer is 100% school vouchers. Eliminate the Department of Education. There is no teaching going on in the Dapartment of Education. Let the parents decide where to send their children to school. Many new schools will pop up when all children are on 100% school vouchers.

 

[ignatius777]

There are no longer any public schools. “Public schools” are government schools. Government administration of schools is both ineffective and inefficient. As in any government monopoly, costs go up and quality goes down.

The answer is 100% school vouchers. Eliminate the Department of Education. There is no teaching going on in the Dapartment of Education. Let the parents decide where to send their children to school. Many new schools will pop up when all children are on 100% school vouchers.

Its a “public” school of my tax dollars are being wasted on it. I have advocated disbannning the dept of ed for years as well as some other depts. We dont need vouchers just let taxpayers keep the money currently wasted and let parents purchase education just like every other commodity and let the market work. The better education products at the best price will be most successful.

 

[manualman]

There are no longer any public schools. “Public schools” are government schools. Government administration of schools is both ineffective and inefficient. As in any government monopoly, costs go up and quality goes down.

The answer is 100% school vouchers. Eliminate the Department of Education. There is no teaching going on in the Dapartment of Education. Let the parents decide where to send their children to school. Many new schools will pop up when all children are on 100% school vouchers.

But this is a Don Quixote answer. Tilting at windmills. Trying to climb Mount Everest with just a pair of gym shoes…

You have to actually listen to those who oppose you, note where they make good points and disarm them by addressing those points. A universally offered $1,000 voucher would be a benefit to parents, students, private schools AND public school administrations. Only an alliance of all four of these groups has any hope of overcoming the self interest of the public school teacher’s union that seeks monopoly control over education. By demaning a full voucher, you automatically put the public school administration in the position of considering you a threat instead of a potential ally. From there you will NEVER win.

 

[sedonaman]

… I have learned the hard way never to give a cashier more than one dollar in change. They cannot count it. If I give less than one dollar in change, the cashier just puts it into the cash register without counting it.
I used to work in a movie theatre, and one day the home office directed us to charge sales tax on candy counter sales. Up to that point, the tax was included in the price. That didn’t last too long because we lost money: the candy girls were giving back too much change. [Since the cash register didn’t subtract, that operation had to be done manually. If the total of a sale was, say, 76 cents and the customer paid with a dollar bill, the candy girl would figure the change to be 34 cents.] They did this even though we trained them how to count back the change.

… Many college professors have resorted to all sorts of gimmicks to help raise the grade average of their students. Many professors actually have a review for the test, which is actually a veiled attempt to go over the questions on the test.

 

[ignatius777]

But this is a Don Quixote answer. Tilting at windmills. Trying to climb Mount Everest with just a pair of gym shoes…

You have to actually listen to those who oppose you, note where they make good points and disarm them by addressing those points. A universally offered $1,000 voucher would be a benefit to parents, students, private schools AND public school administrations. Only an alliance of all four of these groups has any hope of overcoming the self interest of the public school teacher’s union that seeks monopoly control over education. By demaning a full voucher, you automatically put the public school administration in the position of considering you a threat instead of a potential ally. From there you will NEVER win.

How would you propose to get public school administrations, which you rightly claim seek a “monopoly control over education” to join an “alliance”? Kids dont belong in govt run goulags 5 days a week where they are indoctrinated with propaganda. Public schools ARE the enemy. You dont enter an “alliance” with somene who is trying to strangle you to death.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

OK, let’s disband the DEd. Let’s get rid of all public schools.

Please tell me that private schools will just spring up to educate disabled children, retarded children, children who do not speak English or Spanish. Until we can come up with a good solution for those children, it isn’t enough to say I want my kid to go to private school.

It is to the benefit of the state and country to have an educated populace. We can definately argue that they aren’t going about it very well in some cases, but we shouldn’t call for closing of all public schools unless we can show a solutiion for those who are the hardest to educate and yet their human dignity says they should receive an education as well.

 

[JimG]

The Department of Education was established in 1979 and began operating in 1980. Has education gotten better since then?

 

[ignatius777]

The Department of Education was established in 1979 and began operating in 1980. Has education gotten better since then?

only if we define “better” as american students testing below other students from countries that spend less money on education.

 

[ACCT]

OK, let’s disband the DEd. Let’s get rid of all public schools.

Please tell me that private schools will just spring up to educate disabled children, retarded children, children who do not speak English or Spanish. Until we can come up with a good solution for those children, it isn’t enough to say I want my kid to go to private school.

It is to the benefit of the state and country to have an educated populace. We can definately argue that they aren’t going about it very well in some cases, but we shouldn’t call for closing of all public schools unless we can show a solutiion for those who are the hardest to educate and yet their human dignity says they should receive an education as well.

**
Doubt about new schools:** What reason is there to suppose that alternatives will really arise? The reason is that a market would develop where it does not exist today. The one prediction that can be made is that only those schools that satisfy their customers will survive. Competition would see to that.

Parents will vote with their school vouchers as to whether a “public” (government) school closes or stays open. What will close are all the Departments of Education in all the states and in Washington, D.C. These departments have been both inefficient and ineffective! If you want something to be done correctly, do NOT ask the government to do it.

 

[sedonaman]

OK, let’s disband the DEd. Let’s get rid of all public schools.

While there is measurable support for disbanding the DEd., no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. The idea is that by letting the parents decide which school to send their kids, public schools will shape up. They would also give parents the same option, or close to it, that Democrat politicians have.

Please tell me that private schools will just spring up to educate disabled children, retarded children, children who do not speak English or Spanish. Until we can come up with a good solution for those children, it isn’t enough to say I want my kid to go to private school.

I don’t follow this non-sequitur. What you are saying is keep the status quo, so reform would come around, like the 12th … … of never.

It is to the benefit of the state and country to have an educated populace.

Agreed, but what we are getting is an indoctrinated populace. In fact, it is already the case. Consider this article:
“GATE-closing plan stirs parental debate at Lincoln Middle School”
By Adam Klawonn
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
May 19, 2005
signonsandiego.com/news/education/20050519-9999-1mi19vusd.html

VISTA, CA – Parents of Latino students at Vista’s most ethnically diverse school are incensed over a campaign by other parents to preserve an honors program there.

The policy debate is taking place at Lincoln Middle School, where the principal is proposing mixing some of the school’s most gifted students with others of mixed academic abilities in an effort to pump up test scores.

The proposal to dismantle the Gifted and Talented Education, or GATE, program at the school is supported by the Latino parents, opposed by parents of the GATE students.

The matter returns to trustees of the Vista Unified School District for review Monday night.
“All students should be treated equally,” Latino parents said in a letter to the board and district administrators. “We believe that the school should not create differences between students who know more and students who know less.”
Now, where did they get the idea that schools “create differences between students”? From the schools themselves by hyping race, ethnicity, and radical egalitarianism.

We can definately argue that they aren’t going about it very well in some cases, but we shouldn’t call for closing of all public schools unless we can show a solutiion for those who are the hardest to educate and yet their human dignity says they should receive an education as well.

Again, no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. You keep saying that. Where did you get that idea? Sounds like you took one data point and extrapolated a whole universe.

 

[PatriceA]

While there is measurable support for disbanding the DEd., no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. The idea is that by letting the parents decide which school to send their kids, public schools will shape up. They would also give parents the same option, or close to it, that Democrat politicians have.

I don’t follow this non-sequitur. What you are saying is keep the status quo, so reform would come around, like the 12th … … of never.

Agreed, but what we are getting is an indoctrinated populace. In fact, it is already the case. Consider this article:
“GATE-closing plan stirs parental debate at Lincoln Middle School”
By Adam Klawonn
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
May 19, 2005
signonsandiego.com/news/education/20050519-9999-1mi19vusd.html

VISTA, CA – Parents of Latino students at Vista’s most ethnically diverse school are incensed over a campaign by other parents to preserve an honors program there.

The policy debate is taking place at Lincoln Middle School, where the principal is proposing mixing some of the school’s most gifted students with others of mixed academic abilities in an effort to pump up test scores.

The proposal to dismantle the Gifted and Talented Education, or GATE, program at the school is supported by the Latino parents, opposed by parents of the GATE students.

The matter returns to trustees of the Vista Unified School District for review Monday night.
“All students should be treated equally,” Latino parents said in a letter to the board and district administrators. “We believe that the school should not create differences between students who know more and students who know less.”
Now, where did they get the idea that schools “create differences between students”? From the schools themselves by hyping race, ethnicity, and radical egalitarianism.

Again, no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. You keep saying that. Where did you get that idea? Sounds like you took one data point and extrapolated a whole universe.

Honestly, I can see where the poster got that idea, because that’s exactly the idea I’m getting from ACCT’s posts.

ACCT’s post are so defensive and combative that even though I haven’t made up my mind yet about what I think about vouchers, his/her posts are actually swaying me AGAINST them.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Again, no one is suggesting that we get rid of all public schools. You keep saying that. Where did you get that idea? Sounds like you took** one data point and extrapolated a whole universe**.

Yep, I agree that’s what you did.

 

[sedonaman]

…ACCT’s post are so defensive and combative that even though I haven’t made up my mind yet about what I think about vouchers, his/her posts are actually swaying me AGAINST them.

There is an up-side to this. No vouchers means that private schools don’t have to dance to the government’s tune, and they can keep the troublemakers out, as the anti-voucher folks keep reminding us.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

There is an up-side to this. No vouchers mean that private schools don’t have to dance to the government’s tune, and they can keep the troublemakers out.

And who are the troublemakers? Disabled children? children who don’t speak English well? children who are perhaps not so smart?

And where are these troublemakers, however they are defined, going to get an education? Because I assure you that and uneducated troublemakers is worse than the alternative.