The Fall According to Mormonism

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Ha, ha, Rebecca, I suppose you know that scripture has nothing to do with the fall.

Oh wait, I had to edit this post because I suddenly realised what you meant. You don’t appreciate me quoting LDS scripture. Okay, well that’s fair. Some people want to know the LDS belief and the source. I don’t expect it to be convincing.

As for your scripture from Galatians, I think I can make an arguement that the Book of Mormon and Bible and other LDS scriptures all teach the same gospel. There are many differences in interpretation of the Bible, it’s true. That’s why the Book of Mormon is called the second witness of Jesus Christ.

About your point about Satan’s lie. The part when he lied is when he said they will not surely die. After the fall, they experienced a sprirtual death (cut off from God’s presence) and became mortal, i.e. subject to physical death. But they were also about to learn about good and evil. I think that’s the point about them not ashamed about being naked until after the fall. And I do believe the gods know good and evil. Do you disagree?
 
rmcmullan said:
Ha, ha, Rebecca, I suppose you know that scripture has nothing to do with the fall. If you want to discuss something, okay but what’s the point in making accusations? Can you not argue your point?
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I agree, Mormon scripture has nothing to do with the fall, so why can’t you make an argument without it?
 
rmcmullan said:
Ha, ha, Rebecca, I suppose you know that scripture has nothing to do with the fall.

Oh wait, I had to edit this post because I suddenly realised what you meant. You don’t appreciate me quoting LDS scripture. Okay, well that’s fair. Some people want to know the LDS belief and the source. I don’t expect it to be convincing.

As for your scripture from Galatians, I think I can make an arguement that the Book of Mormon and Bible and other LDS scriptures all teach the same gospel. There are many differences in interpretation of the Bible, it’s true. That’s why the Book of Mormon is called the second witness of Jesus Christ.

About your point about Satan’s lie. The part when he lied is when he said they will not surely die. After the fall, they experienced a sprirtual death (cut off from God’s presence) and became mortal, i.e. subject to physical death. But they were also about to learn about good and evil. I think that’s the point about them not ashamed about being naked until after the fall. And I do believe the gods know good and evil. Do you disagree?
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no
 
Then you agree that only half of what the devil said was true and that A&E, after the fall, learned good and evil firsthand. And all of mankind afterwards.

So is it possible we actually agree pretty well on all this? Was the only problem the original sin issue? What exactly is the objection to the LDS interpretation?

We even have a scripture which is close to the concept of original sin.
Moses 5:13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.
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Oh, darn it, sorry, I forgot you don’t like me quoting LDS scripture!
 
rmcmullan said:
Then you agree that only half of what the devil said was true and that A&E, after the fall, learned good and evil firsthand. And all of mankind afterwards.

So is it possible we actually agree pretty well on all this? Was the only problem the original sin issue? What exactly is the objection to the LDS interpretation?

We even have a scripture which is close to the concept of original sin.

Oh, darn it, sorry, I forgot you don’t like me quoting LDS scripture!
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I didn’t really clarify. No to your concept of gods. As there are no gods there really is nothing that defines them. Unless of course you hold to pagan beliefs.

No to there being another “witness”, as it is a false witness. One that contradicts truth, therefore, it is a lie.

No to your concept of what went on with the fall. There was only one lie. That one can disobey God and become a god. That is a lie, and one that I know you choose to believe. I disagree.

There was no shame in their nakedness as God created a perfect world. What happened, is sin entered the world. That they were ashamed is an indication of that corruption.
 
zerinus said:
Have you ever wondered why God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden in the first place?

zerinus
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No, not really it never has struck me to ask why it was there. I mean to me it would be like why did God create the world on plates that move and cause quakes?
 
rmcmullan said:
Well said, and that’s the LDS POV on the fall. Except for the original sin concept, is this also a Catholic POV, just not the emphasis?
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Your quoted versus from the Book of Moses seem to push the LDS idea that the Fall was no big deal. Since I do not accept any uniquely LDS book as scriptural, but merely the product of human imagination, I think this many be an attempt by Joseph Smith to get rid of original sin. I still haven’t really figured out Mormonism’s problem with original sin. I think they actually believe in it without realizing it. We all agree that the affects of Adam and Eve’s sin have passed on to all people (mortality, spiritual separation from God, pain in childbirth, tilling the ground, etc.). St. Paul tells us explicitly that sin entered the world through Adam and stayed. All men have an inherent tendency towards sin (what is that from?). So why Mormons have a problem with this concept still eludes me. Maybe they just wanted to separate themselves from the rest of the Christian world to make themselves different.
 
Maybe it is subtle. Just from a philosophical framework though, it makes no sense for us (or Baptists) to accept original sin but then teach that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. Likewise, for RC, infant baptism is consistent with original sin.

Another place where the difference in philosophy is evident is in the concept of Grace. in LDS thinking, it’s a much weaker concept. Most LDS theology is very much opposed to Calvinist thought. We are very much opposed to OSAS. And when it comes to the works vs. faith argument, we favor both only but are usually perceived as favoring works because there are so many denominations that insist on faith only. Woe, I’m being really vague here. I think I’m trying to say that the emphasis is that you are much more responsible for your own salvation. So while we agree that the world is corrupted and man’s nature oriented towards ungodliness, we still have free will. We’ll be judged on how we exercised it, and not how Adam exercised his.

Remember how just before the flood, the world had become so wicked, the Lord was determined to wipe it out and start again. What if you were one of the unlucky souls to be born during that time? Would the influence of the corruptible world be too much to resist? Does the sway and multiplicity of evil influences enter into your day of judgement? Is that what original sin is about?
 
Chris-WA said:
Your quoted versus from the Book of Moses seem to push the LDS idea that the Fall was no big deal. Since I do not accept any uniquely LDS book as scriptural, but merely the product of human imagination, I think this many be an attempt by Joseph Smith to get rid of original sin. I still haven’t really figured out Mormonism’s problem with original sin. I think they actually believe in it without realizing it. We all agree that the affects of Adam and Eve’s sin have passed on to all people (mortality, spiritual separation from God, pain in childbirth, tilling the ground, etc.). St. Paul tells us explicitly that sin entered the world through Adam and stayed. All men have an inherent tendency towards sin (what is that from?). So why Mormons have a problem with this concept still eludes me. Maybe they just wanted to separate themselves from the rest of the Christian world to make themselves different.
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You still haven’t answered my question: Why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden in the first place? And what is wrong with knowing good and evil anyway? I should have thought that any kind of knowledge would be a desirable thing; but especially knowledge of good and evil. Would you like to be deprived of your knowledge of good and evil? Bear in mind that if you didn’t know the difference between good and evil, you couldn’t do any good—or evil! So what is the deal?

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
You still haven’t answered my question: Why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden in the first place? And what is wrong with knowing good and evil anyway? I should have thought that any kind of knowledge would be a desirable thing; but especially knowledge of good and evil. Would you like to be deprived of your knowledge of good and evil? Bear in mind that if you didn’t know the difference between good and evil, you couldn’t do any good—or evil! So what is the deal?

zerinus
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Mormons are so confused that they think knowing evil is good.

Before the fall Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in perfect holiness, ie good. What is good about losing that to the evil of sin?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Mormons are so confused that they think knowing evil is good.

Before the fall Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in perfect holiness, ie good. What is good about losing that to the evil of sin?
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What is good in learning to choose good over evil.
 
teancum79 said:
What is good in learning to choose good over evil.
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Free will is good, of course. Adam and Eve had it from the beginning, I already said that. They chose to sin, again, what is good about sin, ie evil?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Free will is good, of course. Adam and Eve had it from the beginning, I already said that. They chose to sin, again, what is good about sin, ie evil?
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It gives us something to choose between.

If you are with Moses eating manna for 40 years and there is nothing else around. Are you choosing to obey commandments given on what you are to eat or not eat?

The Garden of Eden was kind of like an election with one name on the ballot (aside form the one tree).

Because of the “fall” we have a world with lots of choices and we can choose good over evil.
 
teancum79 said:
It gives us something to choose between.

If you are with Moses eating manna for 40 years and there is nothing else around. Are you choosing to obey commandments given on what you are to eat or not eat?

The Garden of Eden was kind of like an election with one name on the ballot (aside form the one tree).

Because of the “fall” we have a world with lots of choices and we can choose good over evil.
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You keep saying that because one can choose evil, that evil is good. Evil is not good, ever. The end does not justify the means, ever.

Moses & Co would not have been wandering for 40 years were it not for the fall, and evil being brought into the world.
 
Evil is bad, but if you can’t choose evil you can’t choose good.
 
majick275 said:
so by your reasoning the celestial kingdom isn’t that great a place cuz there’s no evil in it. no more “choices”
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No. The Celestial Kingdom will be a great place beacuse it will be filled with those who love God more than man and choose good over evil.
 
teancum79 said:
Evil is bad, but if you can’t choose evil you can’t choose good.
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Adam and Eve were given two choices, one was to obey God, the other was not. Clearly, they understood one was right and one was wrong. They had free will. They had a choice.

They chose to disobey God, bringing evil into the world. Which was not God’s plan, no matter how much you believe it was. It was the plan of the one who tempted them, Satan.

You are confusing the desires of God with the desires of Satan.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Adam and Eve were given two choices, one was to obey God, the other was not. Clearly, they understood one was right and one was wrong. They had free will. They had a choice.

They chose to disobey God, bringing evil into the world. Which was not God’s plan, no matter how much you believe it was. It was the plan of the one who tempted them, Satan.

You are confusing the desires of God with the desires of Satan.
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No its understanding that God was aware of Satan and allowed him to play his part in God’s grand plan.
 
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