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rmcmullan
Guest
Thank you for that comment!
That’s our franchise. The description of this forum, is
Non-Catholic Religions: Comparing and contrasting beliefs
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That’s our franchise. The description of this forum, is
Non-Catholic Religions: Comparing and contrasting beliefs
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Lilyflower
Guest
My emphasis
While I agree with you ‘dialogue is important’, we should not confuse LDS with Christianity. They may be good people but so far as I am aware they do not fulfill the criteria to be called ‘Christian’, but then again I could be wrong.
Blessings and peace
S
Steven_John
Guest
Could you please offer your definition of what it means to be called Christian.
Peace and blessings to you and yours
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rmcmullan
Guest
I’m pretty sure she means Roman Catholic or a derivative thereof (Protestant). Or that She is the High and Mighty Judge of All Those Who Claim to be Christian.
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ibkc
Guest
The Mormons themselves did not consider themselves Christians until recently.
I wonder what precipitated the change in attitude.
I wonder what precipitated the change in attitude.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Where you get that idea from, I would like to know. Show me some proof please!
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ibkc
Guest
Why certainly. The LDS Church has set itself firmly removed from Christianity from the very beginning.
“Christianity…is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.” - Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167
“Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom.” - Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 127
“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.”- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225
“What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing… Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God.”- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225
“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent.” - Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255
“… who, in his right mind, could, for one moment, suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original.” - Apostle Orson Pratt, “The Bible and Tradition, without Further Revelation, an insufficient Guide,” Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon – No. 3, December 1, 1850, p. 47; see Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p. 383-384
“After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon.” - Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p. 324
“For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation …Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the ‘Christian’ churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men.” - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 282
“…the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, …But with the Bible it was not and is not so…it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization [Christianity], founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13
“Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46
“… all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ… in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375
And finally, a slightly “nicer” twist:
“God is not at its head, making that church * – following the appearance in it of Satan – no longer the church of God. To say that Satan sits in the place of God in Christianity after the time of the apostles is not to say that all that is in it is Satanic.” - Kent P. Jackson, “Early Signs of Apostasy,” Ensign, December 1984, p. 9*
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AMDGtoo
Guest
On the off chance that you mean “any of us” and not just Lilyflower, I will tell you mine.
A “Christian” is one who believes that Jesus was the son of God
and atoned for our sins by his death and resurrection and
believes in following the teachings of Jesus regarding brotherly love, [etc.] and is a member of the Church which has developed in an unbroken line from the Church founded by Jesus and one who accepts her creeds" (and yes, this includes the separated churches that broke away from the original Church) and recognizes that Jesus was a good Jew so sees at least basic Jewish beliefs (like there being one God) in their core beliefs as well as having beliefs that coincide with the core teachings of mainstream Christian churches (since “our separated brethren” remain connected with the original Church although not in a complete way.)
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
ibkc,
That only proves that they thought the other Christian churches had fallen into apostasy, and that they were the true church of Christ.
Brigham Young: “I shall see the day when every son and daughter of Adam will bow the knee, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Chist, the Son of God, the Savior of the world - that we owe him our lives, and that we are indebted to him, and through him to the Father for every blessing we enjoy.” Journal of Discourses 8:11
Does this sound non-Christian to you?
That only proves that they thought the other Christian churches had fallen into apostasy, and that they were the true church of Christ.
Brigham Young: “I shall see the day when every son and daughter of Adam will bow the knee, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Chist, the Son of God, the Savior of the world - that we owe him our lives, and that we are indebted to him, and through him to the Father for every blessing we enjoy.” Journal of Discourses 8:11
Does this sound non-Christian to you?
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ibkc
Guest
They denied they were Christian and deliberately set themselves against and apart from all other Christians. They had to retreat far into the American wilderness to do so, in fact, because their doctrines and practices were so thoroughly non-Christian and even anti-Christian that they simply could not peacefully co-exist in the mainstream of the US. The Mormon groups that did remain east, such as the RLDS (now Community of Christ) toned down their rhetoric and practices so as to fit in a little better with their neighbors.
Nothing that Brigham Young taught sounds very Christian to me, given that (among other things) he taught that Adam was actually God.
“… they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character [Adam] that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.” - Brigham Young, April 9, 1852
Does that sound Christian to you?
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Some of this is just semantics. Also, not all Christians believe in the Trinity.
Some facts about the Trinity:
•The word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible
•The word “Trinity” was first used by Tertullian (c.155-230)
•The doctrine of the Trinity is commonly expressed as: “One God, three Persons”
•The doctrine is formally defined in the Nicene Creed, which declares Jesus to be: “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.”
•Past and present Christian faiths who do not believe in the Trinity include:
Arianism (4th century)
Some Radical Reformers (16th century), such as Michael Servetus
Jehovah’s Witnesses
Mormonism
Unitarianism
•Reasons given for rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity include:
It is not mentioned in the Bible
It does not make philosophical sense
It is not compatible with monotheism
It is not necessary in order to explain the “specialness” of Jesus
•Reasons given for believing in the Trinity include:
It is taught indirectly in various statements in the Bible
It explains the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit while affirming monotheism
It would not be expected that the nature of God would make sense to human minds
The early ecumenical councils (primarily Nicea) are authoritative
Some facts about the Trinity:
•The word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible
•The word “Trinity” was first used by Tertullian (c.155-230)
•The doctrine of the Trinity is commonly expressed as: “One God, three Persons”
•The doctrine is formally defined in the Nicene Creed, which declares Jesus to be: “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.”
•Past and present Christian faiths who do not believe in the Trinity include:
Arianism (4th century)
Some Radical Reformers (16th century), such as Michael Servetus
Jehovah’s Witnesses
Mormonism
Unitarianism
•Reasons given for rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity include:
It is not mentioned in the Bible
It does not make philosophical sense
It is not compatible with monotheism
It is not necessary in order to explain the “specialness” of Jesus
•Reasons given for believing in the Trinity include:
It is taught indirectly in various statements in the Bible
It explains the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit while affirming monotheism
It would not be expected that the nature of God would make sense to human minds
The early ecumenical councils (primarily Nicea) are authoritative
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armyross
Guest
LDS is not Christian. They belive when they die they can become a God.
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ibkc
Guest
Thanks for the information on the Trinity. I’m sure it was new and helpful to some. However, nonbelief in the Trinity alone isn’t enough.
They’re not Christians, either.
Not only do the JWs deny the Trinity; they deny that Jesus is God in any way.
They’re not Christians, either.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Well, I’m sure they would disagree, but you seem to know best.
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AMDGtoo
Guest
(cough, cough) You equate blatant heresy as “Christian”?
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Okay, who wants to trash the Unitarians now?
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armyross
Guest
You seem so angry, why is this?
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
No I’m not angry. It’s just that on my list of Christians who don’t believe in the Trinity, no one has trashed the Unitarians yet. What makes them stand out as Christians?
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armyross
Guest
I really don’t think that we should be trashing anyone.
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ibkc
Guest
No one’s trashing anyone.
Both the Mormons and the JWs think Christianity is false, have viciously attacked the creeds and tenets of Christianity, and have historically set themselves apart from Christians. That’s simply a fact - stating such is not “trashing” them.
Simply including Christ in a mythos does not make a sect Christian. If it did, we could say that Islam is actually Christian, since they recognize Jesus as a prophet.
Both the Mormons and the JWs think Christianity is false, have viciously attacked the creeds and tenets of Christianity, and have historically set themselves apart from Christians. That’s simply a fact - stating such is not “trashing” them.
Simply including Christ in a mythos does not make a sect Christian. If it did, we could say that Islam is actually Christian, since they recognize Jesus as a prophet.
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