The Fall (Not Autumn)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ruh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Ruh

Guest
Why am I punished for Adam and Eve’s sin Why should I have to die/suffer because of something someone else did? This doesn’t square with my notion of justice. In criminal law, you cannot prosecute someone unless two facts are present: (a) there is a guilty mind (i.e., the person meant to do the crime), and (b) there is a guilty action (we only punish acts, not thoughts). So why is it ok to punish all of humanity for that first fall? Looking for some thoughts please?
 
Why am I punished for Adam and Eve’s sin Why should I have to die/suffer because of something someone else did? This doesn’t square with my notion of justice. In criminal law, you cannot prosecute someone unless two facts are present: (a) there is a guilty mind (i.e., the person meant to do the crime), and (b) there is a guilty action (we only punish acts, not thoughts). So why is it ok to punish all of humanity for that first fall? Looking for some thoughts please?
The punishment is temporal. Not eternal if you choose correctly.
 
Actually, most Catholics do view the Bible as being somewhat metaphorical.
However, not this particular topic. Of course, the nice thing about catholics is they dont hold you to a literal 6 day creation with one day of rest, literal flood, ect.
 
The punishment is temporal. Not eternal if you choose correctly

Can you explain what you mean please?
 
The punishment is temporal. Not eternal if you choose correctly

Can you explain what you mean please?
Hi Ruh!

Christians believe if we perservere, we will be joined with God in heaven for eternity. Because we believe in an eternal soul that never dies. So, if we die here, that is a temporal but not a permanent punishment. Suffering is also temporal.
I am not officially a christian yet, so when I say we, I mean those who believe.
 
How does this tie into your understanding of Orignal Sin?
Well, I see it as a glass half full, not half empty.
All parents, love their children.
Just think about one thing, in the creation account. God made us in his image and likeness. But, he also created beast on the same day (the word used is most likely pig)
He gave us a chance to enter the covenant with him, and pick up the work of the Lord.
Intellect can be darkened, and will weakened. Will dominates.
The Nahash (serpent) said something…
Did God say?..
Then he said: You will not die.

They could have prayed to God for help.

Adam had to trust that God would raise him to eternal life. God had to do what Adam could not do. God became man to do it.
 
So, Original Sin. First of all, Adam and Eve, the people, probably did not exist. However, Original Sin does indeed exist. What is Original Sin, though? Well, looking at the Bible, allegorically as Macbook Fun so insightfully pointed out, Adam and Eve ate some fruit that God told them not to. So, that makes Original Sin disobedience, right? NO. Why did they eat the fruit? To become like God–perhaps to become greater than God. And what makes us feel like we’re greater than the Greatest?

Pride, pride, pride.

All humans, whether we admit it or not, tend to be prideful and need some healthy deflating once in a while. We’re all somewhat disposed towards pride–and pride happens when we put our will over God’s: when we sin.

So yes, we are punished for Original Sin, only because Original Sin leads us to do more sinning. It doesn’t really sound all that unfair to me, when I think of it like that–and I hope it sounds somewhat fairer to you as well.
 
So, Original Sin. First of all, Adam and Eve, the people, probably did not exist. However, Original Sin does indeed exist. What is Original Sin, though? Well, looking at the Bible, allegorically as Macbook Fun so insightfully pointed out, Adam and Eve ate some fruit that God told them not to. So, that makes Original Sin disobedience, right? NO. Why did they eat the fruit? To become like God–perhaps to become greater than God. And what makes us feel like we’re greater than the Greatest?

Pride, pride, pride.

All humans, whether we admit it or not, tend to be prideful and need some healthy deflating once in a while. We’re all somewhat disposed towards pride–and pride happens when we put our will over God’s: when we sin.

So yes, we are punished for Original Sin, only because Original Sin leads us to do more sinning. It doesn’t really sound all that unfair to me, when I think of it like that–and I hope it sounds somewhat fairer to you as well.
actually, Adam and Eve DID exist (maybe they called themselves other names, but they existed). How can you think the opposite?
When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is no no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
and we are not “punished” for original sin, we only bear it’s consequences.
 
Okay so this goes back to my orignal question. Why are we encountering the consequences if we did not cause them?
 
Ruh,

May I ask, are you a lawyer or law student? You mentioned mens rea and actus reus.

VC
 
Okay so this goes back to my orignal question. Why are we encountering the consequences if we did not cause them?
As a atheist not too long ago, can I ask you what consequences anyone would suffer if they did not believe in God that are any different? Of course, lets put aside an eternal soul for now.
 
Oops, you caught me. I’m one of those nefarious Catholics that try to slip a little bit of Latin in when I see a chance! 😛

VC
I wish I had tried a bit harder in high school to actually learn it.
It was offered to me. I told my dad, I wanted to take the course.

However, I ended up being more interested in other things…
:o
The classmate next to me.

I should have paid more attention than I did.

But, Caligula was a heck of a film. I will give my Latin teacher that much.:eek:
 
Why am I punished for Adam and Eve’s sin Why should I have to die/suffer because of something someone else did? This doesn’t square with my notion of justice. In criminal law, you cannot prosecute someone unless two facts are present: (a) there is a guilty mind (i.e., the person meant to do the crime), and (b) there is a guilty action (we only punish acts, not thoughts). So why is it ok to punish all of humanity for that first fall? Looking for some thoughts please?
I don’t expect to know the answer in full, this side of Jordan. However, it is an interesting thing to speculate about.

I have, in one way or another, for all my life, been involved in ranching. As a young fellow, I often reflected on how cattle know so very little about what is good for them or not good for them. At the same time, they never exhibit remorse, and rarely even exhibit dissatisfaction. And when they do exhibit the latter, it is always on an extremely basic level (“no water here, break fence. Maybe no water there either, but break it anyway. Maybe not break it and die.”)

I have sometimes wondered whether perhaps at some point in human history (and with a bow to possible evolution here) our early ancestors were in a state of complete acceptance; rather like mystics sometimes are. Maybe paradise wasn’t such a paradise. Maybe they only accepted it. Maybe in that acceptance, they were in communion with God, in the same sort of way that cattle are. Cattle never depart from their basic purpose or nature. And could it be that some remote ancestors, through a direct gift or perhaps even an evolutionary change, or even a combination of such a change and a decision, had a sudden self-realization, but one of a different sort; a realization that brought the consciousness that they could rebel. And what, then was the “forbidden fruit”? Something, perhaps outside our nature? Or was it a moment of consent to that newly acquired ability to rebel; to resent a condition more natural to us; to no longer consent. Was that moment one of “I will not serve”?

Is it possible that our very ability to choose our own course is the result of a choice? And, being now what we are, are we only now capable of rebelling, of doing evil? Is electing to exercise choice; choice that may be good or bad, what Original sin really is? Is it a sin so much as it is a faculty and, being imperfect, are we then always subject to sinning?

Is it possible that, through an overwhelming abundance of Grace, Mary “saw” with a moral clarity we might, theoretically, have, but which we reject with the first choice we make that is knowingly against our proper nature? Is it possible that we find that choice and that moment perversely delicious and befoul our own wills?
Is it possible that we actually are able, through prayer and self-denial, to overcome that befouling and become saints on this earth? Is it possible that purgatory is our “second chance”; that seeing more clearly at our judgments, we choose to be purged of that wilfullness and tendency to rebel, and thus become, again, perfectly innocent, but in a world vastly more perfect than the one our first parents walked?

For me, it’s fascinating to think about such things. We are told by some scientists that all humans are descended from one woman. “Eve” they not surprisingly called her. Something they figured out from studying DNA, but which I couldn’t begin to explain. Is it perhaps possible that this “Eve” somehow actuated a capacity that was in herself; a capacity to rebel. Might “Eve” have elected not to actuate it, and had she not, would she have lived much as we live, perhaps more primitively, but not minded?
 
Why am I punished for Adam and Eve’s sin Why should I have to die/suffer because of something someone else did? This doesn’t square with my notion of justice. In criminal law, you cannot prosecute someone unless two facts are present: (a) there is a guilty mind (i.e., the person meant to do the crime), and (b) there is a guilty action (we only punish acts, not thoughts). So why is it ok to punish all of humanity for that first fall? Looking for some thoughts please?
Try thinking of it geographically terms, like people moving from one state to another. A child is born in the state where the mother is at the time of birth, but the child can later move to another state.

Adam and Eve moved from the State of Grace to the State of Sin. Humans are born in the state of Original Sin because it’s where our “parents” (Adam and Eve) brought humanity. The Bible begins with Genesis, but the story does not end at the Fall. The Bible tells of The Fall *and *The Redemption. Jesus Christ makes it possible for us to move back to the state of grace.

Just because we are born in a state of original sin doesn’t mean we have to stay there. Through baptism, we move into the state of grace. If we fall after baptism, the sins on our souls are personal sins, not original sin. Christ gave us the Sacraments of Baptism and Reconciliation as two ways to move back to the State of Grace.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top