The Fall (Not Autumn)

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“Christ gave us the Sacraments of Baptism and Reconciliation as two ways to move back to the State of Grace.”

Beyond that, he gave men authority to dispense these sacaraments.

And, this would be very normal considering God had given Moses and others in the Hebrew bible, authority. God works with man.

In Christianity.
 
Why am I punished for Adam and Eve’s sin Why should I have to die/suffer because of something someone else did? This doesn’t square with my notion of justice. In criminal law, you cannot prosecute someone unless two facts are present: (a) there is a guilty mind (i.e., the person meant to do the crime), and (b) there is a guilty action (we only punish acts, not thoughts). So why is it ok to punish all of humanity for that first fall? Looking for some thoughts please?
I think that man committing OS was inevitable-that probably each and every one of us would do the same if we had eternity to do it. So “in Adam all sinned.”, and the consequence-this life-affords us the opportunity to learn that “the wages of sin is death”-that separation from God ain’t so great -and that the salvation He offers for our reconciliation is that great.
 
Okay so this goes back to my orignal question. Why are we encountering the consequences if we did not cause them?
If, before you were born, your parents were millionaires but squandered all their money in a scheme concocted by a confidence man, you would suffer the consequences of their now impoverished state even though you weren’t around to help them lose the money.
 
Why am I punished for Adam and Eve’s sin Why should I have to die/suffer because of something someone else did? This doesn’t square with my notion of justice. In criminal law, you cannot prosecute someone unless two facts are present: (a) there is a guilty mind (i.e., the person meant to do the crime), and (b) there is a guilty action (we only punish acts, not thoughts). So why is it ok to punish all of humanity for that first fall? Looking for some thoughts please?
If you have a Catechism of the Catholic Church, I’d suggest reading paragraphs #385 - 412. If you don’t have the book, here’s a website for this section: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM

The following is one of the paragraphs in the section titled “The Fall”.
#404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. and that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.
 
Okay so this goes back to my orignal question. Why are we encountering the consequences if we did not cause them?
God knows that given the same choice as Adam and Eve we would make same choice. Instead of condemning all of humanity he provided a means to restore what we would all choose to reject. And this he did out of love for us, while we were still rejecting Him.

“But God proves his love in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us” Romans 5:8
 
What was the fruit for if it was off limits to Adam and Eve?
The fruit was simply what the gift of freedom allowed the possibility for-the possibility of rebelling against God, i.e. the possibility of sinning. IOW, no free will=no forbidden fruit to eat

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
 
I was just wondering how many people are aware that portions of Genesis have an uncanny resemblance to older Sumerian/Akkadian myths?

i.e. Enuma Elish = creation story, Epic of Gilgamesh = Noah & the Flood,
Enki and Ninhursag = the Fall

For those that are aware, how do you account for these much older yet similar stories?

Regarding Eve and the Fall;
Enki’s greed to eat the eight sacred plants which gave birth to the Vegetal World resonates the eating of the Forbidden Fruit by Adam and Eve, and 6) most remarkably, this myth provides na explanation for one of the most puzzling motifs in the Biblical paradise story - the famous passage describing the fashioning of Eve, the mother of all living, from the rib of Adam. Why a rib instead of another organ to fashion the woman whose name Eve means according to the Bible, ‘she who makes live’? If we look at the Sumerian myth, we see that when Enki gets ill, cursed by Ninhursag, one of his body parts that start dying is the rib. The Sumerian word for rib is ‘ti’ . To heal each o Enki’s dying body parts, Ninhursag gives birth to eight goddesses. The goddess created for the healing of Enki’s rib is called ‘Nin-ti’, ‘the lady of the rib’. But the Sumerian word ‘ti’ also means ‘to make live’. The name ‘Nin-ti’ may therefore mean ‘the lady who makes live’ as well as ‘the lady of the rib’. Thus, a very ancient literary pun was carried over and perpetuated in the Bible, but without its original meaning, because the Hebrew word for ‘rib’ and that for ‘who makes live’ have nothing in common. Moreover, it is Ninhursag who gives her life essence to heal Enki, who is then reborn from her (Kramer, 1981:143-144).
gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/texts/retellings/enkininhur.htm

sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum07.htm
 
When Adam and Eve sinned, sin and death entered the world. We suffer not today because of actual sin, but because of original sin. And for the notion of justice, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. None of us are free from sin. That sin affects us all. The Bible said through one man sin entered the world. But rest easy, through ones man sacrifice sin and death is conquered and we can look to the the promise that one day, God will wipe away every tear, and there will be no more pain and suffering.
 
Okay so this goes back to my orignal question. Why are we encountering the consequences if we did not cause them?
You imply this is not fair. Okay, if it’s not fair, then it’s also not fair to reap the benefits of the *second *Adam’s actions either.

“As in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.” 1 Corinthians 15:22

You know what’s not fair? What’s not fair is being accused of a crime you didn’t commit, being beaten, scourged, crowned with thorns, having to carry a heavy wooden cross, being nailed to that cross, being crucified, and dying in agony, covered only with your own blood and the spit of your enemies. That’s what’s not fair.
 
For those that are aware, how do you account for these much older yet similar stories?
Perhaps coincidence, perhaps they represent partial truths of creation.

How do you account for their complete irrelevence in the world today compared to Christianity?
 
Perhaps coincidence, perhaps they represent partial truths of creation.
Partial truths? So do you believe that the goddess Ninhursag cursed Enki in the garden of Edinu and created the goddess Ninti from his rib?
How do you account for their complete irrelevence in the world today compared to Christianity?
I don’t find them irrelevant. These are the origins of the Genesis stories. These origins should be of the utmost importance given that absolute salvation supposedly hangs upon believing in the Fall.
 
Partial truths? So do you believe that the goddess Ninhursag cursed Enki in the garden of Edinu and created the goddess Ninti from his rib?
No I dont. I believe the creation of man and woman was distinct from the rest of creation. The above may partially represent this truth. Just like all societies having some form of god is a partial representation of the one God.
I don’t find them irrelevant.
I know, but the rest of the world does. No one knows or cares about Ninhursag and all the other **** contained in these accounts. Yet Christianity flourishes. How do you explain it since their “stories” are no better?? Could it be there is something else there? Abrahams promise has been fulfilled in Christianity - he is the spiritual father of billions. Where are the mesopotamian gods? Where is the faith? Where is anything but their ancient texts? They have all come to naught. Yet Christianity flourishes…
These are the origins of the Genesis stories. These origins should be of the utmost importance given that absolute salvation supposedly hangs upon believing in the Fall.
You have made the assumption that they are the origins of the Genesis stories - you dont know that. Furthermore, we dont need any written account of anything to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He left us a Church instead of a book and sent us the Holy Spirit as His guarantee.
 
Redhen,

God has shown himself to various people through various times. I am not the least surprised that he would in times before Christ came in the flesh and dwelt amoung us.

He did in many ways, even before Judaism.

However, I have no doubt that the paths made then, were only paved to lead the way to the Triune God.
 
I don’t find them irrelevant. These are the origins of the Genesis stories. These origins should be of the utmost importance given that absolute salvation supposedly hangs upon believing in the Fall.
The origin would have been from the first humans - Adam and Eve. As the oral history got passed on thru the ages, and people/cultures divided, some versions remained more accurate than others (the Genesis account, to be specific.!). It’s not at all surprising that there are similarites in the religious accounts of other cultures. It would be more surprising if there weren’t any.

Nita
 
The origin would have been from the first humans - Adam and Eve. As the oral history got passed on thru the ages, and people/cultures divided, some versions remained more accurate than others (the Genesis account, to be specific.!). It’s not at all surprising that there are similarites in the religious accounts of other cultures. It would be more surprising if there weren’t any.

Nita
Every culture has their own creation myth, and they are all different.
If Genesis had some textual similarities to the ancient Chinese or Incan myths, then yes, I would put it down to coincidence.
But given that the Akkadian myths and Genesis both arose from the same location it is reasonable to assume that there was some assimilation.

I don’t know of any Assyriology scholars that believe that the Genesis creation stories were **not **adapted from the Enuma Elish and “Enki and Ninhursag”.

The implications here are huge. If the first creation story in Genesis is borrowed from the Enuma Elish, and the second Genesis account based on “Enki and Ninhursag”, as most scholars conclude, then they both based on Akkadian mythology.

If Adam, Eden and the Fall is myth, then there is no original sin. Without original sin there is no need for a sacrificial redemption.

Given the implication I am surprised there is not more discussion on this topic.
 
No one knows or cares about Ninhursag and all the other **** contained in these accounts. Yet Christianity flourishes. How do you explain it since their “stories” are no better?? Could it be there is something else there? Abrahams promise has been fulfilled in Christianity - he is the spiritual father of billions. Where are the mesopotamian gods? Where is the faith? Where is anything but their ancient texts? They have all come to naught. Yet Christianity flourishes…
When cultures die so too do their religions, usually. That’s why no one worships (seriously) the old Akkadian gods. Why did Christianity survive? Probably because it was the State religion of the greatest empire in history. That might have something to with it.

Anyway, if age and longevity of a religion is your criteria for it’s validity, why aren’t you a follower of the worlds oldest, continuous religion - Hinduism?
 
When cultures die so too do their religions, usually. That’s why no one worships (seriously) the old Akkadian gods. Why did Christianity survive? Probably because it was the State religion of the greatest empire in history. That might have something to with it.
 
Why am I punished for Adam and Eve’s sin Why should I have to die/suffer because of something someone else did? This doesn’t square with my notion of justice. In criminal law, you cannot prosecute someone unless two facts are present: (a) there is a guilty mind (i.e., the person meant to do the crime), and (b) there is a guilty action (we only punish acts, not thoughts). So why is it ok to punish all of humanity for that first fall? Looking for some thoughts please?
Adam and Eve allowed sin, death, evil, etc., into the world - not God. We are just suffering the consequences of another’s actions. Much the same way the family of a murder victim suffer the consequences of the murder’s crime. Surely, they are not at fault, but suffer nonetheless. We suffer the effects of sin, regardless of who commits it.

As an aside, our justice system sometimes punishes those who commit crimes accidentally (vehicular homicide). There is never a guilty mind in this case - only a guilty action.
 
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