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twinc
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Have we really grasped what happened at "The Fall"and the consequences etc - any comments,opinions,ideas,observations, conclusions etc - twinc
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NotWorthy
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Pride brought on the Fall… “you shall be like God”. Adam and Eve declared, through their actions, that they do not need God.
We, in turn, do that every time we reject God and willingly commit a sin against Him.
We, in turn, do that every time we reject God and willingly commit a sin against Him.
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awatkins69
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prodigalson12
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Jesus came to give us a glimpse at only a fraction of what was lost, and still largely is.
Matthew 20:18
"See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the high priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death.
Can’t have someone running around telling us the truth, it goes against so much of our common understandings even to this day:
Matthew 21:18-22
The Fig Tree Withers
18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
You tell people this passage, they look at you strange, still, he didn’t mean this figuratively. Think about our race that really got it, really practiced it, really used it, how far, far advanced we would be by now…
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thistle
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Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. CCC 385 - 412. Covers it all clearly.
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prodigalson12
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We as humans were delegated before the fall to be below the angels, butthead reared his ugly head and thought he was going to make a mess of it all, we have had to deal with a lot of pain and suffering, but the saved souls end up far above the angels in the process…talk about back fire in this process, we get attacked and face hardships, we move up…they and him moves down…
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Hope3
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Some humans end up far above the angels.
Jesus’ human nature only (not His Divine Nature) was made a little lower than the angels Hebrews 2:9 and He was born without Original Sin, and He was exalted far above them after His resurrection Hebrews 1:1-6.
Mary, also born without Original Sin, is one of the humans who is also exalted far above the angels. The Mother of the King in the Davidic line of Kings is always the Queen. Since Jesus is now and forevermore King of heaven and earth, His Mother Mary is now and forevermore Queen of heaven and earth.
Not all humans end up far above the angels. Many humans just barely make it into heaven Matthew 16:27, [1 Corinthians 3:14](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+3:14&version=NKJV), [2 John 1:8](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 John+1:8&version=NKJV). After death, we humans are all rewarded according to the works/deeds we did while we were on earth.
We will attain equality with angels after we die if we are faithful to God until death, which means that we will forever be sons (and daughters of God) just like the angels are sons of God, and we will also live forever.
Luke 20:35-36
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
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StrawberryJam
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I think the whole consequences part is about as far as you can go with a conclusion. Eternal seperation from God sounds pretty final and pretty eternal to me.
Conclusion:
I can’t believe any of it.
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prodigalson12
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The angels are not sons and daughters of God, they are different, only we as man are God’s offspring. Sure, there will be people that barely make it up to heaven, not at all up there in rank with the angels, but we as God’s children have the capacity they do not. Originally, before the fall, our roll at best was still, ranking below the angels, something happens along the way of our salvation here that causes the game plan to change.
I’m probably not explaining it well enough, but this is something I heard on ewtn and they tend not to stretch the truth you know.
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prodigalson12
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You are an agnostic, got it, do you have something constructive to contribute?
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StrawberryJam
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My point was, there can’t be anything more final and absolute than what you have come up with already regarding the Fall. How can there be something overlooked when the final consequence is what it is? What more could there be?
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twinc
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It seems to me that God is a spiritual being and so being created in His image and likeness really means we were and are really spiritual beings.After the Fall it seems we lost our sense of the spiritual and became immersed in the material and physical.Science has since dematerialised matter so proving that we are indeed spiritual beings.It seems we must reclaim and regain our spirituality by rejecting our materiality and physicality - we must be born again it seems - any comments - twinc
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prodigalson12
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twinc is speaking above you, not I, though. Christ did the same with us, he made it so, clearly plain, Peter walking on the water was just an example of it in action, yet here we are limited by the what is entirely because the what is is based upon total lack of belief. Move mountains, walk on water, utetterly defy all of the known physical laws, but we can very much do those things if we believe we can, yet still to this day, people simply do not get those very basic, raw fundamentals.
We fell, and are still fallen as a race due to our own thought processes. The likes of you reinforce it, and this is why you and I are at odds here, I choose one way, you choose another, and I pray for your soul and well being, you pray for the opposite in my case.? Why is that, honestly though, what do you have to gain in the process for trying to derrail me, or other believers to think as you do, to regress further into the mire of our fallen state, when all that are here for the most part desire to trancend our self serving state into something far better? Or, are you going to take the stance of wanting to join us, and if so, make your intentions clear, you are either one of us, for us, or against us, tell me which are you?
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StrawberryJam
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I can’t make out much of what you are saying here, forgive me. What I am getting out of your first paragraph is that Christians can very literally move mountians, walk on water and defy all of the known physical laws because Christians lack belief in their ability to do so, that is why we don’t see them doing this?
In the second paragraph, and I could be misunderstanding you but it seems the existance of non believers are also to blame for this situation. And, you believe I am praying for something (opposite?) than what you believe in, and that I am trying to derrail you, others, and basically must be for or against you as your book mentions.
Did I get that all right so far?
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Hope3
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Thank you for your reply.
All righteous human beings are sons and daughters of God since they were created by Him. The righteous angels are spiritual beings and they were created by God and so are they not therefore called sons of God even though they do not have a physical body? E.g., Michael the archangel is a righteous angel created by God. He is called a great prince of God. Before the Incarnation, Jesus was a spiritual being only.
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Daniel 12:1**
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Luke 20:35-36
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore,** for they are equal to the angels** and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Righteous human beings will become equal to the angels after the resurrection and righteous humans will become sons of God after the resurrection so doesn’t this mean that they will finally be attaining the perpetual angelic status of eternal life which includes sonship of God since God is Creator of both types of beings?
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StrawberryJam
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Can you tell me how non-righteous human beings are not created in the image of God?Thank you for your reply.
All righteous human beings are sons and daughters of God since they were created by Him. The righteous angels are spiritual beings and they were created by God and so are they not therefore called sons of God even though they do not have a physical body? E.g., Michael the archangel is a righteous angel created by God. He is called a great prince of God. Before the Incarnation, Jesus was a spiritual being only.
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Daniel 12:1**
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
Luke 20:35-36
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore,** for they are equal to the angels** and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Righteous human beings will become equal to the angels after the resurrection and righteous humans will become sons of God after the resurrection so doesn’t this mean that they will finally be attaining the perpetual angelic status of sonship of God?
Does this mean you believe in double pre-destination?
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Hope3
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All human beings are created in the image and likeness of God in that they each have an immortal soul and they are each given the ability to think and to reason. James 1:21-22 They all are also given free will to choose their own eternal abode and this is determined by their own individual free will actions done by them while they live on earth. Their fruits/works/deeds will prove whether they are righteous or unrighteous. Matthew 7:19-23, Joshua 24:15
They will all be judged by their works/deeds without partiality by God immediately after death. 1 Peter 1:16-19, Acts 10:34-35
Jesus redeemed all of mankind, not just some of mankind. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 His free gift of redemption and its accompanying graces gives every person the ability to choose to become reconciled to God if he/she desires to and if persons do become reconciled through baptism, then this reconciliation gives them the hope of inheriting eternal life after they die. Titus 3:7 Whether they each individually choose to become reconciled to God through Baptism and then live righteously with the help of God’s grace “continually” afterward until death in order to be approved by God to inherit the crown of eternal life is their own free will choice. Acts 13:43, James 1:12
A righteous human being freely chooses to fear God and he/she works righteousness (does righteous works/deeds). An unrighteous human being freely chooses to not fear God and he/she freely chooses to either do evil works/deeds or else he/she freely chooses to do no good works/deeds. John 5:28-29, Revelation 3:15-17, Matthew 7:19
No.
This means that double predestination is not a tenable belief at all in any shape or form.
God predestined persons to eternal life (His heavenly kingdom) before He created the world Matthew 25:34 and this predestination was done according to His foreknowledge of future events. [1 Peter 1:2](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+1:2&version=NKJV), Romans 8:30
Because of God’s omniscience [He is all-knowing; He knows all things past, present, and future.], He knew before He created mankind which individual persons (who would be born in the future) would choose to fear Him and do righteous works until their deaths and He predestined only these persons to enter into eternal life.
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StrawberryJam
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So, only believers do righteous works?
Or is it a righteous work to believe? Is that the primary thing, belief?
I’ll live by works alone. I’ll fail just like christians do. But, I won’t be able to do any less due to my lack of belief.
Or is it a righteous work to believe? Is that the primary thing, belief?
I’ll live by works alone. I’ll fail just like christians do. But, I won’t be able to do any less due to my lack of belief.
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prodigalson12
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That’s the thing, you can’t make out much of what I’m saying, everybody here that is a believer can, you see this great divide we face, between you and I? If you cannot understand this, you cannot understand many things we know as fact, and there is a reason it talks in scripture about let him who has ears, hear, it also talks about he who can see is also blind. I might as well be telling you the purple shoehorn flies windows 18.0 from a green smell…you see how impossible it is to understand that statement, it’s not at all logical in either of our minds, it’s literally the same difference, and the only reason it is so, is because you think you know, but clearly you do not, and instead of humbly studying, you stumble forward in objection.
I can put this into context here, something you can relate to. I had a guy I tried to bring in to help me in the shop, he’s using this router, and instead of using common sense, it’s running wildly away, he doesn’t turn the thing off, opts to leave it running while he places it around, his fingers right next to the sharp cutting blade which is spinning at high velocity, even leans down onto it, just a fraction of an inch above it while he’s moving pieces around. I’m thinking just cough, just sneaze, just lose your foothold, just let the piece, or any myriad of things slip, and you now have this potentially mortal wound on your body…much less lost fingers, or any number of things… The guy has total confidence that he knows what he’s doing, I have a vast amount of experience, to know what can and will go wrong, yet he opts to work in this manner, regardless of how badly he’s going to maim himself…He didn’t last the day, I had to send him home, couldn’t afford the liability, and ended up having to repair everything he worked on, made one bonehead mistake after another, all because he wouldn’t listen to reason. He could have listened, followed my instructions, would have been a good employee, and would have been safe in the process, yet, he cannot nor will not due to his stubborn pride.
The question here is, why are you that guy at caf? Are you hear to learn, or to just prove a point, to try to derail others? To get them to hold that router in an unsafe manner, or are you hear to listen, learn, and realize, we have something to teach? God writes people off, just like I wrote that guy off in my shop, same difference different context, and no matter how much instruction I give him, he will not listen, not until he loses a finger or worse, and in your case, losing a soul…This is why our prayers are opposite…
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prodigalson12
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Nope, not at all, all faith, and non of faith, tend to be rather self serving, to do things for their own benifit, and that alone. It’s our human nature, it’s our faith that teaches us otherwise, and if you are doing good works and being of service to others with no desire for reward of any kind, you are truly getting the message our Lord taught us and I will give you a pat on the back for doing so.
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