The Fall

[Qoeleth]

I wish to pose the question as to how the event/metaphor of the Fall is understood. My understanding is that it is metaphysical and ontological- the post-Fall universe is fundamentally different from the pre-Fall paradise.

Now the pre-Fall order was what God intended- the post-Fall order is NOT what God intended, but the product of sin- hence disease, death, famine, disaster and suffering. Metaphorically, after the Fall, the Devil become the Ruler of this World. I suggest that we need to be very careful about the use of the term “Creation”, and perhaps should use “Fall-ation” instead, when we are talking about the world as we see it now.

Now, the Fall and the Devil, so fundamental to Christian theology, offers a decent answer to athiests who ask questions like “Why does God send/allow earthquakes?” He doesn’t- it is the Evil One, the order of a Fallen world which is radically different to what God wanted.

Do others see the Fall this way? A lot of people seem to wish to reduce the Fall to a theological footnote.

 

[tonyrey]

I believe you attribute too much power to Satan. It seems very far-fetched to think** one** **human **sin is the cause of **the immense number of horrific deaths and injuries caused by natural **disasters. It implies that God permits the whole of Creation to be ruined by a being who doesn’t even belong to this universe! Why would God give such inordinate power over life and death on earth to an evil spirit?

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I wish to pose the question as to how the event/metaphor of the Fall is understood. My understanding is that it is metaphysical and ontological- the post-Fall universe is fundamentally different from the pre-Fall paradise.

Now the pre-Fall order was what God intended- the post-Fall order is NOT what God intended, but the product of sin- hence disease, death, famine, disaster and suffering. Metaphorically, after the Fall, the Devil become the Ruler of this World. I suggest that we need to be very careful about the use of the term “Creation”, and perhaps should use “Fall-ation” instead, when we are talking about the world as we see it now.

Now, the Fall and the Devil, so fundamental to Christian theology, offers a decent answer to athiests who ask questions like “Why does God send/allow earthquakes?” He doesn’t- it is the Evil One, the order of a Fallen world which is radically different to what God wanted.

Do others see the Fall this way? A lot of people seem to wish to reduce the Fall to a theological footnote.

The story of creation within Genesis is a Myth handed down by oral tradition. The world has always been the same, where good and evil, life and death, sin and sinlessness have always been the condition of the world since its existence.

The beginning of the bible is a mythological story. Its not symbolic, its not allegoric and its not metaphoric. It pertains to something that never occurred. Its a myth. Just like the greeks and romans had their creation mythologies, the native americans–theirs, and other’s–their own.

Man was never immortal and neither can man live for hundreds of years because that which is born of flesh perishes. No one can live for 900 years and not experience age or sickness. A 900 year old man is physically impossible due to the conditions of age.

Supernatural trees do not exist within this world. The supernatural is beyond man’s grasp and never has its power within his reach. That is the way of the world. A man who thinks he has supernatural power is delusional.

Man has been man for 250,000 years. Even with Adam and his descendant’s supposed supernatural long-life, the recorded genealogy does not cover 250,000 years.

The Myth of the story of Genesis says that God created the world in 7 days; and that is what the author meant, 7 days for creation. 7 days is not symbolic when the original meaning intended absolutely 7 days. People who read the scripture back in Hebrew times thought it meant 7 days. 7 days does not account for what we now assume to be at least Billions of years.

The author describes the firmament between heaven (the sky) and earth. People used to believe that their was water in the sky (as in a body of water) and that the window would open in the sky and it would rain. That’s why it says God separated the waters which were above the firmament from the waters which were below the firmament. Another myth.

And there is much more to consider why this, the story of Genesis, is a myth.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I believe you attribute too much power to Satan. It seems very far-fetched to think** one** **human **sin is the cause of **the immense number of horrific deaths and injuries caused by natural **disasters. It implies that God permits the whole of Creation to be ruined by a being who doesn’t even belong to this universe! Why would God give such inordinate power over life and death on earth to an evil spirit?

Natural disasters are caused by the order of the universe. It is the condition of the world. The general principal of this order of this world is that all things are in opposition to everything else, hence natural disasters. It is Wisdom that makes things this way. Conflict and Peace are halves of Wisdom. In other words, Opposition (conflict) and Rest (Peace) are the way of Life. There must be Movement and Rest in Eternal Life.

 

[Qoeleth]

Natural disasters are caused by the order of the universe. It is the condition of the world. The general principal of this order of this world is that all things are in opposition to everything else, hence natural disasters. It is Wisdom that makes things this way. Conflict and Peace are halves of Wisdom. In other words, Opposition (conflict) and Rest (Peace) are the way of Life. There must be Movement and Rest in Eternal Life.

But true Wisdom could never give rise to anything which causes harm to people, since true Wisdom is Jesus and Jesus does not randomly hurt people. Are you saying the condition of the world reflect’s God’s wisdom? If it is a ‘wisdom’ which allows cancer and child abuse, it is a wisdom I cannot believe in.

No, the current ‘natural’ order is a corruption, a perversion, an antithesis of God’s loving will. That is why we must always remember that the current natural order started, not with God’s will, but with the Fall.

 

[Qoeleth]

I believe you attribute too much power to Satan. It seems very far-fetched to think** one** **human **sin is the cause of **the immense number of horrific deaths and injuries caused by natural **disasters. It implies that God permits the whole of Creation to be ruined by a being who doesn’t even belong to this universe! Why would God give such inordinate power over life and death on earth to an evil spirit?

Are you sure God gi****ves/permits power to the Devil? If He did, it would imply that the fight between the Devil which Jesus waged on the Cross was not real, but merely a show. And Jesus describes the Devil as a “strong man”. Is it possible that the struggle between God and the Devil for souls IS a genuine struggle- not something which God just ‘permits’?

This is not Zoastrianism or Manicheism- I would understand God as having power over the eternal realm, and the Devil as having power of the material realm (hence, “My Kingdom is not of this World”). Since the material world is only transitory and not ‘real’, it is still true to describe God as omnipotent.

 

[edwest2]

"Real History

"The argument is that all of this is real history, it is simply ordered topically rather than chronologically, and the ancient audience of Genesis, it is argued, would have understood it as such.

"Even if Genesis 1 records God’s work in a topical fashion, it still records God’s work—things God really did.

"The Catechism explains that “Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine ‘work,’ concluded by the ‘rest’ of the seventh day” (CCC 337), but “nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God’s word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history is rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun” (CCC 338).

"It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

"Adam and Eve: Real People

"It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

“The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).”

Source: Catholic Answers library

Peace,
Ed

 

[grannymh]

The story of creation within Genesis is a Myth handed down by oral tradition. The world has always been the same, where good and evil, life and death, sin and sinlessness have always been the condition of the world since its existence.

The beginning of the bible is a mythological story. Its not symbolic, its not allegoric and its not metaphoric. It pertains to something that never occurred. Its a myth. Just like the greeks and romans had their creation mythologies, the native americans–theirs, and other’s–their own.

Man was never immortal and neither can man live for hundreds of years because that which is born of flesh perishes. No one can live for 900 years and not experience age or sickness. A 900 year old man is physically impossible due to the conditions of age.

Supernatural trees do not exist within this world. The supernatural is beyond man’s grasp and never has its power within his reach. That is the way of the world. A man who thinks he has supernatural power is delusional.

Man has been man for 250,000 years. Even with Adam and his descendant’s supposed supernatural long-life, the recorded genealogy does not cover 250,000 years.

The Myth of the story of Genesis says that God created the world in 7 days; and that is what the author meant, 7 days for creation. 7 days is not symbolic when the original meaning intended absolutely 7 days. People who read the scripture back in Hebrew times thought it meant 7 days. 7 days does not account for what we now assume to be at least Billions of years.

The author describes the firmament between heaven (the sky) and earth. People used to believe that their was water in the sky (as in a body of water) and that the window would open in the sky and it would rain. That’s why it says God separated the waters which were above the firmament from the waters which were below the firmament. Another myth.

And there is much more to consider why this, the story of Genesis, is a myth.

The spiritual soul is not a myth. The purpose of the spiritual soul is not a myth. The purpose of the spiritual soul is described in the first three chapters of Genesis in both real and figurative language. The figurative language in the first three chapters of Generis does not refer to myths; it refers to Divine Revelation. God’s existence is not a myth.

 

[paduard]

The spiritual soul is not a myth. The purpose of the spiritual soul is not a myth. The purpose of the spiritual soul is described in the first three chapters of Genesis in both real and figurative language. The figurative language in the first three chapters of Generis does not refer to myths; it refers to Divine Revelation. God’s existence is not a myth.

I agree. And if the sin of Adam somehow affected his DNA then he would have been doomed to die thereafter. Just a thought.

 

[Shike]

But true Wisdom could never give rise to anything which causes harm to people, since true Wisdom is Jesus and Jesus does not randomly hurt people. Are you saying the condition of the world reflect’s God’s wisdom? If it is a ‘wisdom’ which allows cancer and child abuse, it is a wisdom I cannot believe in.

No, the current ‘natural’ order is a corruption, a perversion, an antithesis of God’s loving will. That is why we must always remember that the current natural order started, not with God’s will, but with the Fall.

Well, it is possible for child abuse to follow from the abuse of free-will; I think free-will does reflect the Wisdom of God.
As for cancer, not all the facts are in. How much is due to human choice (albeit without full knowledge)? But regardless, why assume that natural disasters were a problem for Adam and Eve?

I think you might be giving too much power to The Fall. It can only happen insofar as creation was/is good. The Fall cannot override that fundamental goodness, otherwise nothing would exist at all. We are fallen creatures, yet still creatures. Our intellects are weakened, yet we still have intellects that can apprehend the truth. If you completely deny the goodness of the current natural order then the question arises, “How do we know such a truth given our corrupted human nature”?

God permitted The Fall to happen. He knows what He is doing with regards to the problem of evil and suffering. You could view natural disasters as random without reference to God’s higher plan, or you could view natural disasters as random with reference to God’s higher plan. You could also look into the definition of “random” and see whether you mean just human ignorance of all the relevant causal factors or an inherent indeterminacy–it’s up to you.

In this context, I don’t think it matters much as long as you keep in mind that God knows what He is doing and love Him with all your heart.

 

[Shike]

The story of creation within Genesis is a Myth handed down by oral tradition.

The word “myth” is often understood as synonymous with something that is a complete fiction. In this context, properly understood, “myth” is allegorical and does contain some basic truths about reality.

Like the other poster who quoted the Catechism, I recommend that you see what it has to say on the matter.

The world has always been the same, where good and evil, life and death, sin and sinlessness have always been the condition of the world since its existence.

That is not the Catholic Church’s position.
What evidence can you give to support your conclusion that things were always the same?

No one can live for 900 years and not experience age or sickness. A 900 year old man is physically impossible due to the conditions of age.

I won’t venture to say how such an occurence in Genesis should be interpreted. What I will say is that all the data is not in.

The only reason I can see for you thinking a 900 year old man is physically impossible is because you think that what is now must have always been the case. But even if it were the case that no man ever lived past 130 years of age, it would not necessitate that no man could live past such an age.

There is much scientific interest in the process of aging and are those who think it is physically possible to live indefinitely. At the very least it is logically possible, which is good enough for God.

People who read the scripture back in Hebrew times thought it meant 7 days. 7 days does not account for what we now assume to be at least Billions of years.

What are your sources for this? I have heard that the Hebrews had a very rich numeric symbolism.