The Fallen Star from heaven - Martin Luther

[Renton405]

Ive been reading Revelation in the Haydock Douay Rheims and I came across an interesting interperatation of Revelation in Chapter IX… Where it says:

Revelation Chapter 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Haydock Commentary says the fallen star might have been Martin Luther:

*Ver. 1. The fifth Angel…and I saw a star, &c. This again may be to represent the confusion of all things in antichrist’s time, or it may signify the fall and apostacy of great and learned men from the Christian faith. Bossuet applies it to the fall of Theodotus, of Byzantium, towards the end of the second age; but certainly no great stress can be laid on such arbitrary applications, which it is no hard matter to invent, as may be seen by the different fancies we may meet with about the locusts, &c. (Witham) — Here is a description of the rise and progress of the reformation. This trumpet begins with announcing to us the fall of a star from heaven; a very just emblem of the apostacy of Luther, who in quality of a priest and religious man is styled a star, but renouncing the faith and vows, may truly be said to have fallen from heaven upon the earth. (Pastorini, hic.[here]) — To him (i.e. to the Angel, not to the fallen star) was given the key of the bottomless pit, which properly signifies hell. (Witham)

Ver. 2. And the smoke, &c. Luther and his followers propagated and defended their new doctrines with such heat and violence, as to occasion every where seditions and insurrections, which they seemed to glory in. Luther openly boasted of it. “You complain,” said he, “that by our gospel the world is become more tumultuous; I answer, God be thanked for it; these things I would have so to be, and woe to me if such things were not.” — The sun was darkened, &c. The light of faith, which is the word of God, may well be represented by the sun, according to that of the Psalm cxviii. 105. “Thy word, O Lord, is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my paths.” And as the air is the spring of man’s respiration and life, it may be a just type of morality, which gives spiritual life and worth to all human actions. By the sun, therefore, and air being darkened, we are to understand faith and morality obscured and perverted by the novel doctrines of the reformers. (Pastorini, hic.[here])*

Kinda interesting I thought…Have there been many Catholics with this view?? Apparently it says the fallen star was someone with good standing(like a priest) but fell(excommunicated)…I always thought it might have to do with the fall of Satan because the War in heaven starts soon after with St. Michael…I wonder what the Jerome Commentary says about this or the Navarre…

 

[Nita]

I have more often thought of applying Rev 8:10-11 to Luther and the Reformation - especially since it was the Diet of Worms which was definitive in his break with the Church.

luther.de/en/worms.html

Rev 8:10-11 …and a great star fell from heaven, … The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, …"

First time I’ve mentioned this to anyone. Am ucomfortable making such judgements.

Nita

 

[spauline]

Why not take an even broader view. The whole of the Trumpets can be seen as great successive spiritual attacks on the Church’s doctrinal development, that do not “harm” the 144000, that is, the faithful Catholics who are “protected” in their “forehead”, that is, from being led astray in their intellect.

And this would correspond to the great illuminitave phase of the Church, what fulfills both the OT age of the prophets (which is now the Magisterium) and the similar second of three stages of the saint, the illuminative way.

The devil’s pattern is really simple: attack the sources of Divine Truth from top to bottom. the sources are, in rank of most reliable to least reliable:

I. The Trinity and Incarnation
II. the Pope
III. the General Apostolic Succession and Oral Tradition
IV. the Written Tradtion (Scripture)
V. Reason

The seven trumpets, beginning after Constantitne, would then be as follows:

I. the Initial Trinitarian and Christological Heresies

II. Islam (a great spiritual kingdom that is the peak of the Divine Nature heresies, like the Church is a great mountain in Daniel 7)

III. The Great Schism (the “bitterness” of hatred and betrayal)

IV, The great Moral Darkening of the Middle Age Clergy (the darkening of the illuminaries, that is, the clergy that should be a light unto Christ, but had been darkened by their scandalous sin)

V. The Protestant Rebellion (the heretics who rebelled lost “five sacraments”, hence five months of torture, but they didn’t completely die spiritually, as heretics can have sanctifying grace through Baptism and Marriage, the two sacraments that are alone retained in heresy.)

VI. the Enlightenment (instead of merely being harmed in a spiritual sense, the deists and rationalists “died” supernaturally, as they no longer believed in a God who [supernaturally] Reveals or Helps). Also the number: 20,000 X 10,000. 10 is a symbol of the world, “2” sacraments are all that are retained in heresy, hence 2 can be a symbol of heresy. so 20,000 X 10,000 can be factored like this: heresies [2] X of the world [10] X pluralified [1000] X pure worldliness [10] X pluralified [1000]

VII. the Modern Secular Apostasy (the false prophet has “2 horns” like a Lamb who has seven. There are seven Sacraments instituted by Christ, only 2 remain in heresy. So, as Tertullian talks about how the devil PLAGAIRIZES the Sacraments), so the ultimate lie of the fall and of the modern apostasy is to take even what goodness remains in heresy and diabolicially twist it into the “ultimate heresy”, the total antithesis of Baptism and Marriage. For more, read this: The Lamb, the True Logos, and the Second Beast, the False Logos

Blessings,
scott

 

[christcnection1]

If false, I think it’s potentially on par with calling the Catholic Church the “whore of Babylon.”

This is just my personal opinion.

Unless the Church became privy that this was true, I would not start jumping to radical conclusions. After all, this is a very heavy topic.

Embracing this view could really hurt many Protestants and drive them away from the Catholic Church.

Have any Saints or Church leaders embraced a similar view? Are there any other prophecies along these lines from one of the Catholic Mystics? (If this kind of support was there it will give more credence to the issue.)

 

[Keikiolu]

Ive been reading Revelation in the Haydock Douay Rheims and I came across an interesting interperatation of Revelation in Chapter IX… Where it says:

Revelation Chapter 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

…[snip]…

Kinda interesting I thought…Have there been many Catholics with this view?? Apparently it says the fallen star was someone with good standing(like a priest) but fell(excommunicated)…I always thought it might have to do with the fall of Satan because the War in heaven starts soon after with St. Michael…I wonder what the Jerome Commentary says about this or the Navarre…

The Navarre says, essentially, that the fallen star is Satan, who will release his demons on earth for a (shortish) time, etc…

To assign this role to Luther seems a stretch and a half to me, personally.

scan below:

**9:1-11:19. **The next two trumpets will impact directly on mankind, producing more horrific effects, in a kind of crescendo. These trumpets follow one after the other (9:1-21), whereas there is a delay before the blowing of the seventh (11:15-19), during which a number of visions occur (10:1-11:14) which anticipate later events narrated in chapters 12-22.
**9:1-2. **The commonest interpretation of the star fallen from heaven to earth is that it stands for one of the fallen angels, most likely Satan himself, of whom Christ said, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven” (Lk 10:18) and whom the present text later describes as being thrown down to the earth (cf. note on 12:13). Behind this lies the notion that the demons are incarcerated in the bowels of the earth. The writer is trying to convey the idea that, when the fifth trumpet is blown, God is going to let demoniacal forces loose to wreak havoc on those of mankind who refuse to recognize God (cf. v. 4). They will be free to operate only for a limited period and to a limited degree and will have to obey “the angel of the bottomless pit” (v. 11), who would be the same angel as received the key of the shafts of the abyss (v. 9), the prince of the demons. Very near the end of the Apocalypse the writer sees the other side of the coin, as it were—Satan and his followers being shut up once more in the pit, after Christ’s victory (cf. 20:1-3).

(( Navarre Bible Revelation pg. 68 ))

 

[GIMJ]

If false, I think it’s potentially on par with calling the Catholic Church the “whore of Babylon.”

This is just my personal opinion.

Unless the Church became privy that this was true, I would not start jumping to radical conclusions. After all, this is a very heavy topic.

Embracing this view could really hurt many Protestants and drive them away from the Catholic Church.

Have any Saints or Church leaders embraced a similar view? Are there any other prophecies along these lines from one of the Catholic Mystics? (If this kind of support was there it will give more credence to the issue.)

:doh2: LOL, yup! Wouldn’t want to “hurt” any of those Protestants. Wouldn’t want to “drive them away from the Catholic Church!!!” :doh2:

God bless your heart, that gave me a laugh!

 

[spauline]

If false, I think it’s potentially on par with calling the Catholic Church the “whore of Babylon.”

This is just my personal opinion.

Unless the Church became privy that this was true, I would not start jumping to radical conclusions. After all, this is a very heavy topic.

Embracing this view could really hurt many Protestants and drive them away from the Catholic Church.

Have any Saints or Church leaders embraced a similar view? Are there any other prophecies along these lines from one of the Catholic Mystics? (If this kind of support was there it will give more credence to the issue.)

Ecclesiology MUST be involved with the apocalypse, because the apocalypse is about Salvation history, and Salvation History has always been about God giving Revelation and grace to humanity, and ever since Christ came, the fullness of that grace and truth is alone mediated through the Catholic Church, and ecclesiological rifts, even though many times started because of OUR sin in the CATHOLIC Church, are a PARTIAL impediment to the renewal of humanity, FIRST, because even though many times the poor persons or communities who separate are only following their conscience, there is still the objective reality that they, IPSO FACTO, lose SOME grace and truth, and, SECONDLY, Christian division confounds the message of Christ and scandalizes the world, making it more difficult for the world to even accept the Gospel at all.

BTW, this is in no way saying that Protestants are the children of the devil, or that they are the WHORE. Far from it. For such imagery is for persons who are totally oblivious to God, who do not care in any conceivable sense who God is and how He relates to you, namely, the modern full apostates: atheists and relativists. In fact, read my interpretation. It is still doing the Protestants justice, in that it admits that in general they are not fully dead in a supernatural sense. For since they are Christians and have at least the grace from Baptism and Marriage, they are not total enemies of God. And yet, because of the lack of five sacraments, it is a spiritual “torture” for them to try to remain following God when they have such little grace to keep them going, and also since they have to try to find the truth with only Scripture, it is spiritual “torture” for them that are humble for they cannot be totally sure that they are right doctrinally. Is it not terrifying if you don’t know for sure what you need to do to avoid going to Hell?

let me ask you this: if the Church bothers to discern between certain formal categories of religion that lie in between Catholicism and total apostasy, and since, as we have seen, these ecclesiological categories have left their mark in Salvation History thus far, why *wouldn’*t the apocalypse and other texts address this?

 

[Renton405]

If false, I think it’s potentially on par with calling the Catholic Church the “whore of Babylon.”

This is just my personal opinion.

Unless the Church became privy that this was true, I would not start jumping to radical conclusions. After all, this is a very heavy topic.

Embracing this view could really hurt many Protestants and drive them away from the Catholic Church.

Have any Saints or Church leaders embraced a similar view? Are there any other prophecies along these lines from one of the Catholic Mystics? (If this kind of support was there it will give more credence to the issue.)

It seems since it is in the Haydock Douay Rhiems it must have been known with some Catholics… I like the Navarre interperatation better, I always thought it had to do with the fall of Satan… Does anyone know what the Jeromes Commentary says about this??

Its seems Father Haydock has some issues with the protestants I notice in his interperatations. He dislikes Luther very much…

 

[christcnection1]

:doh2: LOL, yup! Wouldn’t want to “hurt” any of those Protestants. Wouldn’t want to “drive them away from the Catholic Church!!!” :doh2:

God bless your heart, that gave me a laugh!

Thank you for the less than charitable remark. (At least that’s the way it appeared to me.)That upset me quite a bit, but I forgive you from my heart.

I am a former Evangelical. If I read this thread when I was a Protestant, I would have been somewhat offended, and perhaps would have shut my heart to the Catholic Church. All I’m saying is keep this in mind when you’re discussing the issue.

We are not talking about a joke; we are talking about salvation. These are heavy issues. Please do not take them too lightly.

I hope you know my intentions are nothing but pure. I’m not judging you. That’s not for me to decide. I’m merely giving you something to consider.

Unfortunately, many Lutherans and/or Protestants will not see love, but rather a condeming remark. (And I know that’s not your intent, but many are understandably defensive and reluctant.)

God bless.

 

[christcnection1]

Ecclesiology MUST be involved with the apocalypse, because the apocalypse is about Salvation history, and Salvation History has always been about God giving Revelation and grace to humanity, and ever since Christ came, the fullness of that grace and truth is alone mediated through the Catholic Church, and ecclesiological rifts, even though many times started because of OUR sin in the CATHOLIC Church, are a PARTIAL impediment to the renewal of humanity, FIRST, because even though many times the poor persons or communities who separate are only following their conscience, there is still the objective reality that they, IPSO FACTO, lose SOME grace and truth, and, SECONDLY, Christian division confounds the message of Christ and scandalizes the world, making it more difficult for the world to even accept the Gospel at all.

BTW, this is in no way saying that Protestants are the children of the devil, or that they are the WHORE. Far from it. For such imagery is for persons who are totally oblivious to God, who do not care in any conceivable sense who God is and how He relates to you, namely, the modern full apostates: atheists and relativists. In fact, read my interpretation. It is still doing the Protestants justice, in that it admits that in general they are not fully dead in a supernatural sense. For since they are Christians and have at least the grace from Baptism and Marriage, they are not total enemies of God. And yet, because of the lack of five sacraments, it is a spiritual “torture” for them to try to remain following God when they have such little grace to keep them going, and also since they have to try to find the truth with only Scripture, it is spiritual “torture” for them that are humble for they cannot be totally sure that they are right doctrinally. Is it not terrifying if you don’t know for sure what you need to do to avoid going to Hell?

let me ask you this: if the Church bothers to discern between certain formal categories of religion that lie in between Catholicism and total apostasy, and since, as we have seen, these ecclesiological categories have left their mark in Salvation History thus far, why *wouldn’*t the apocalypse and other texts address this?

No, I agree with you. My only point was to tread carefully. Our separted brethren, whom we love, may misinterpret what is being written.

I do not think what you said did this by the way. I’m just trying to be proactive, rather than reactive. Perceptions can be a dangerous thing, and unfortunately, many opinions are formed prematurely based on misunderstandings.

Bottom line: Keep the tone low-key and charitable. This is not dogma after all. I believe most Catholic scholars seem to think the fallen star is Satan.

 

[spauline]

No, I agree with you. My only point was to tread carefully. Our separted brethren, whom we love, may misinterpret what is being written.

I do not think what you said did this by the way. I’m just trying to be proactive, rather than reactive. Perceptions can be a dangerous thing, and unfortunately, many opinions are formed prematurely based on misunderstandings.

Bottom line: Keep the tone low-key and charitable. This is not dogma after all. I believe most Catholic scholars seem to think the fallen star is Satan.

Dear Christconnection:

thank you for clarifying. I apologize for misunderstanding you. And yes, I agree, we must tread carefully, so as not to unnecessarily push anyone away. I agree. And yes, I also realize that we are on speculative ground here.

But I strongly feel in my heart after much meditation that it is highly likely that ecclesiology is intimately involved with the apocalypse and even more so with the Trumpets. But I do think there is a way to interpret the text in a manner that is both objective, that is, pointing out deficiencies of intermediate categories of faith, but that does not overly condemn such intermediate groups of religion that at least have some goodness to them.

Again, thank you for the clarification, Christnection, and I rejoice with you that you are now home in the bosom of Our Mother!

 

[Clovis]

I marvel too much at a fallen star with the power to unlock such a infinitely endless torment, for fear of intuitive error. Wormwood is also one of those little aches like the water to blood as flowed from Christ spear wound. Only when drunken is the truth known, I just theorize that the angel who walks in the midst of the fiery stones, which very well could be this fallen angel of yours, and who, once he is cast to earth by God and marvel at by men, maybe even be the brunt end of all jokes in the end’s end, but the funny thing truly is that it isn’t funny at all, pathetic isn’t even the right word, how is it known that this little former cherub will not again be with God, maybe when God says ‘you shall be no more’, he meant the wretch he had become with his iniquity will be reject by the cherub when he has opened his eyes to wisdom, people learn from their mistakes, maybe after all not only in Isaiah be the light-bearer, but in Revelation be the morning star, as Christ spoke, ‘so that the scripture can be fulfilled’, therefore ‘Blast hell to heaven’ - Lucky (Waiting for Godot).

 

[spauline]

I marvel too much at a fallen star with the power to unlock such a infinitely endless torment, for fear of intuitive error. Wormwood is also one of those little aches like the water to blood as flowed from Christ spear wound. Only when drunken is the truth known, I just theorize that the angel who walks in the midst of the fiery stones, which very well could be this fallen angel of yours, and who, once he is cast to earth by God and marvel at by men, maybe even be the brunt end of all jokes in the end’s end, but the funny thing truly is that it isn’t funny at all, pathetic isn’t even the right word, how is it known that this little former cherub will not again be with God, maybe when God says ‘you shall be no more’, he meant the wretch he had become with his iniquity will be reject by the cherub when he has opened his eyes to wisdom, people learn from their mistakes, maybe after all not only in Isaiah be the light-bearer, but in Revelation be the morning star, as Christ spoke, ‘so that the scripture can be fulfilled’, therefore ‘Blast hell to heaven’ - Lucky (Waiting for Godot).

I’m sorry, I don’t understand you. Could you explain in more simple terms?

I mean really, I’m not being sarcastic. I really want to know.

 

[Clovis]

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.

I have read actual fiction by good Christian who felt the need to bound themselves to chairs and cry endlessly, or understand the bee-hive and all the bees humming at different pitches and flying in different angles and levels and speeds, but only as to return to the home of the hive. Maybe this unnameable figure hoards himself over us with the laughter which once looked so innocent. That he could come to us all who gather around him, to look in his empty impotent eyes, and have him open his hand to show us something, only to reveal in the hollow of his hand an arse-hole, and we all intuitively and stupidly burst into laughter and our guts bust like Judas and that is the end of all of us.

Jesus never laughed.

P.S. As for Luther, maybe he was a touch over-zealous, but so was Isaiah wouldn’t you say?

 

[JeanneH]

Revelation Chapter 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Haydock Commentary says the fallen star might have been Martin Luther:

According to R.S. Sungenis the fallen star is Jesus. Rev. 1:18 indicates that it is Christ who has the keys of “Death and Hades”. Thus it is Christ himself who unlocks the legions of Satan to wreck havoc on earth.

JeanneH

 

[Nita]

It seems since it is in the Haydock Douay Rhiems it must have been known with some Catholics… I like the Navarre interperatation better, I always thought it had to do with the fall of Satan… Does anyone know what the Jeromes Commentary says about this??

Its seems Father Haydock has some issues with the protestants I notice in his interperatations. He dislikes Luther very much…

The interpretations are not necessarily Fr. Haydock’s. He often quotes commentary from an ECF or some known Scripture scholar.

 

[Nita]

According to R.S. Sungenis the fallen star is Jesus. Rev. 1:18 indicates that it is Christ who has the keys of “Death and Hades”. Thus it is Christ himself who unlocks the legions of Satan to wreck havoc on earth.

JeanneH

There’s a difference between “having” the keys
(Rev 1:18 … I… have the keys of death and of hell.)

and in being given the keys by someone else (eg Jesus).
(Rev 9:1 …and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.)

The more traditional interpretation seems better to me than Sungenis’s.

Nita

 

[JeanneH]

There’s a difference between “having” the keys
(Rev 1:18 … I… have the keys of death and of hell.)

and in being given the keys by someone else (eg Jesus).
(Rev 9:1 …and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.)

The more traditional interpretation seems better to me than Sungenis’s.

Nita

Hi Nita

You make a good point. I reread the scriptures and the traditional interpretation is better.
I have read pros and cons on Sungenis and it makes me wonder if I should be reading his “take” on Revelations. Any opinions would be appreciated.
JeanneH

 

[Jerry-Jet]

How true is it that Martin Luther had pychiatric problems?

 

[christcnection1]

How true is it that Martin Luther had pychiatric problems?

I would say that was very likely; however, that shouldn’t necessarily rule his viewpoints out. (…even though I disagree with many of this beliefs)

St. Francis was believed to be Bipolar (Manic-Depressive). Perhaps that could be said for other Saints as well.

This may nothing to do with their love for God, dedication to Him, and ability to promote theological truths.

What the world deems as psychological problems, may in fact, be graces given from God. Many extraordinary people have extraordinary “issues.”