The Father resurrected the Son?

[dreamfleur]

I was discussing the miracles of Jesus Christ with my Seventh-Day Adventist grandmother and I asked her what Jesus’ greatest miracle had been?
She mentioned that he had performed so many miracles that she didn’t know. I then suggested that it was His resurrection. She said…“No, the Father resurrected him.”
She firmly believes that God the Father has a body and that Jesus having a body means that he and the Father are separate. She also mentioned that…" Well then, when Jesus was praying to the Father then what, he was praying to himself?".

I mentioned that this is not the proper “view” of the Trinity and that if she “understood” the trinity then it was probably incorrect because the trinity is beyond our understanding.

Any insights?!?!

 

[Filioque]

Your grandmother probably comes from the non-Trinitarian SDA school that put Sister White’s writings as equal to the Scriptures. The school influenced the formation of the SDA, Mormon and JW among others. It places Jesus as a subordinate creature, and not the Second person of the Holy Trinity, co-eternal and of the same substance. A radical departure from what Jesus and the Apostles taught. “My Father and I are one.”

One can view that Jesus resurrection is an act of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, as their will is one. This does not negate that Jesus’ resurrection was by His own power, as opposed to the way we will be raised up by Him at the end of time.

 

[marywarfield]

I was discussing the miracles of Jesus Christ with my Seventh-Day Adventist grandmother and I asked her what Jesus’ greatest miracle had been?
She mentioned that he had performed so many miracles that she didn’t know. I then suggested that it was His resurrection. She said…“No, the Father resurrected him.”
She firmly believes that God the Father has a body and that Jesus having a body means that he and the Father are separate. She also mentioned that…" Well then, when Jesus was praying to the Father then what, he was praying to himself?".

I mentioned that this is not the proper “view” of the Trinity and that if she “understood” the trinity then it was probably incorrect because the trinity is beyond our understanding.

Any insights?!?!

She is not understanding her own trinity. The Adventists
have a valid trinity and baptism. It’s her own understanding
that is flawed and sounding much closer to the
Mormon view of the Godhead.

Nevertheless the Adventust view of God and Heaven
itself is skewed, imperfect and factionalized.
For instance when William Miller’s prediction of the
Second Coming did not materialize in 1844, Ellen
White, the secondary founder took the view that
Christ did indeed return in 1844 but to Heaven not earth
in order to clean out the Holy of Holies in Heaven
of evil and satanic elements. This theory she incorporated
into what became known as the Seventh Day Adventists
in 1860.
Of course this begs the questions:
Where was Christ in 1844 before He returned
to Heaven to do the housekeeping?
How did evil and demonic influence occur within
Heaven itself?
Where was the Father while all this activity was
occurring?

Obviously we can see that the Adventists have a
very very different view of what and who and the roles are
of heaven, the Father and the Son.
And since Adventists cling to the authority of personal
private revelation nothing one says can be considered
representative of the Church entire. Therefore I
would assume this lady is speaking purely on her own
authority.

 

[dreamfleur]

Your grandmother probably comes from the non-Trinitarian SDA school that put Sister White’s writings as equal to the Scriptures. The school influenced the formation of the SDA, Mormon and JW among others. It places Jesus as a subordinate creature, and not the Second person of the Holy Trinity, co-eternal and of the same substance. A radical departure from what Jesus and the Apostles taught. “My Father and I are one.”

One can view that Jesus resurrection is an act of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, as their will is one. This does not negate that Jesus’ resurrection was by His own power, as opposed to the way we will be raised up by Him at the end of time.

The ENTIRE SDA denomination puts Sister White’s writings as equal to scripture (and superior in cases where it needs clarification)…just check out their “Clear Word Bible” infused with all of Ellen G White’s writings right next to whatever you happen to be reading.

In order to be baptized a Seventh Day Adventist you need to accept their 28 fundamental Adventist beliefs ( one of which says that you accept Ellen G. White as inspired). So unfortunately most SDA’s (whether they realize or not) do adhere to Ellen White and her teachings.

As far as them being Trinitarian I am doubtful…they adhere to the belief that Jesus was Michael the Archangel in his pre-incarnate form and are looking forward to seeing him (Michael= Jesus: as the same person not Michael the Archangel and Jesus) coming in the clouds at the second coming.

I am just coming out of Adventism so I know what their beliefs are…I am more uncertain as to how this could be viewed from a Catholic perspective so that I could help her better understand.

Thanks for your reponse.

 

[marywarfield]

The ENTIRE SDA denomination puts Sister White’s writings as equal to scripture (and superior in cases where it needs clarification)…just check out their “Clear Word Bible” infused with all of Ellen G White’s writings right next to whatever you happen to be reading.

In order to be baptized a Seventh Day Adventist you need to accept their 28 fundamental Adventist beliefs ( one of which says that you accept Ellen G. White as inspired). So unfortunately most SDA’s (whether they realize or not) do adhere to Ellen White and her teachings.

As far as them being Trinitarian I am doubtful…they adhere to the belief that Jesus was Michael the Archangel in his pre-incarnate form and are looking forward to seeing him (Michael= Jesus: as the same person not Michael the Archangel and Jesus) coming in the clouds at the second coming.

I am just coming out of Adventism so I know what their beliefs are…I am more uncertain as to how this could be viewed from a Catholic perspective so that I could help her better understand.

Thanks for your reponse.

ANY baptism using the Trinitarian formula- Father, Son
and Holy Spirit/Ghost- is considered valid by the
Catholic Church. It has always bothered me that
baptisms in the Trinity while the baptized had no
concept of who and what Christ is we’re considered
valid but nevertheless according to a Catholic Answers
tract/ they are. Apparently any fault of understanding
on the part of the minister in no way diminishes the
validity.

 

[dreamfleur]

Yes…I was taught that in RCIA.
Correct formula + water = Valid baptism

That being said each Diocese has a document stating which baptisms are valid/ not valid. SDA baptism is apparently “sometimes valid” and since the parish where I am attending takes this seriously they plan on conditionally baptizing me “just in case”.

SDA’s are “re-baptizers” and require anyone entering their denomination to be baptized regardless of where they come from. Also if you are “ex-communicated” from the SDA church they baptize you again to re-enter. A peculiar dynamic.
It is also probably required because you are required to “believe” all 28 fundamental beliefs and the baptism is a way of publicly declaring such.

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

there is a movement among adventists known as “semi-arian” which your Grand Mother is speaking.

Her objection is purposely representing the trinity from an modalist, sabellius, Jesus Only, mindset that sees only one person in the trinity wearing three masks.

just google “semi-arian” “seventh day adventist”

All three persons of trinity, godhead had a role in the resurrection

Jesus John 2:19
God Rom 10:9, I Peter 1:21
Father Gal 1:1, Eph 1:17-20
Holy Spirit Romans 8:11

 

[PJM]

=dreamfleur;11811904]I was discussing the miracles of Jesus Christ with my Seventh-Day Adventist grandmother and I asked her what Jesus’ greatest miracle had been?
She mentioned that he had performed so many miracles that she didn’t know. I then suggested that it was His resurrection. She said…“No, the Father resurrected him.”
She firmly believes that God the Father has a body and that Jesus having a body means that he and the Father are separate. She also mentioned that…" Well then, when Jesus was praying to the Father then what, he was praying to himself?".

I mentioned that this is not the proper “view” of the Trinity and that if she “understood” the trinity then it was probably incorrect because the trinity is beyond our understanding.

Any insights?!?!

John.2: 1] "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple,[means His BODY] and in three days*** I will raise it up.”***

As for praying to and for HIMSELF: This is partially true.

KEEP IN MIND that Christ alone has to complete and perfect natures:

Jesus is ALWAYS GOD

Jesus in him HUMAN nature was a mortal man.

So, yes when Jesus prayers to the Father in his human nature; he was praying ALSO to himself in His Divine Nature

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

I think it is John 6:24 that comes into play too. He says that he sees the Father do a good work, then he himself does it. Thus he sees the Father ressurrecting Jesus, and then somehow Jesus raises himself too.

 

[dreamfleur]

From the official SDA site. Their 28 fundamental beliefs state…

About Ellen White:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

there is a movement among adventists known as “semi-arian” which your Grand Mother is speaking.

Her objection is purposely representing the trinity from an modalist, sabellius, Jesus Only, mindset that sees only one person in the trinity wearing three masks.

just google “semi-arian” “seventh day adventist”

All three persons of trinity, godhead had a role in the resurrection.

About the Father:
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gra- cious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

The Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human be- ing, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

The Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ’s life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

And lastly…
The Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Please help me to break this up into chunks that can expose if something stated “doesn’t line up”…
If something doesn’t line up it may be clear as day to a Catholic but I was taught this all of my life and at times I don’t exactly see where something is amiss.

Thanks

 

[twf]

ANY baptism using the Trinitarian formula- Father, Son
and Holy Spirit/Ghost- is considered valid by the
Catholic Church. It has always bothered me that
baptisms in the Trinity while the baptized had no
concept of who and what Christ is we’re considered
valid but nevertheless according to a Catholic Answers
tract/ they are. Apparently any fault of understanding
on the part of the minister in no way diminishes the
validity.

This is not necessarily true. In addition to valid matter (water) and valid form (the Trinitarian formula), there must also be valid intent ("to intend do what the Church does when she baptizes…). The Church interprets this quite loosely, in such a way that the intent of most Protestant denominations is considered sufficient. Mormon baptism, on the other hand, is an example of a baptism done with water and using the Trinitarian formula which the Catholic Church rejects: catholic.com/quickquestions/why-doesnt-the-catholic-church-accept-mormon-baptism

 

[PaulDupre1]

For your consideration:

John 10:16-18 (KJV)

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because **I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.**

So it seems that Jesus received from the Father the commandment to lay down His life for us, but Jesus held within Himself power to rise from the dead.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre1]

SDA’s are “re-baptizers” and require anyone entering their denomination to be baptized regardless of where they come from. Also if you are “ex-communicated” from the SDA church they baptize you again to re-enter. A peculiar dynamic.

LDS are the same.

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

Jesus also said, “I am the Resurrection and the Life”

Ask the Arian(Jehovah’s Witness) or Semi-Arian(Independent Ministries in Adventism) “was Jesus lying?”

 

[dreamfleur]

For your consideration:

So it seems that Jesus received from the Father the commandment to lay down His life for us, but Jesus held within Himself power to rise from the dead.

Paul

Thank you !
This I will use.

 

[Bklynguy]

Well then, when Jesus was praying to the Father then what, he was praying to himself?".

This was to show and nurture our faith to the fact that Jesus is completely and fully man and fully divine.

 

[Pythons]

I was discussing the miracles of Jesus Christ with my Seventh-Day Adventist grandmother and I asked her what Jesus’ greatest miracle had been?
She mentioned that he had performed so many miracles that she didn’t know. I then suggested that it was His resurrection. She said…“No, the Father resurrected him.”
**She firmly believes that God the Father has a body **and that Jesus having a body means that he and the Father are separate. She also mentioned that…" Well then, when Jesus was praying to the Father then what, he was praying to himself?".

I mentioned that this is not the proper “view” of the Trinity and that if she “understood” the trinity then it was probably incorrect because the trinity is beyond our understanding.

Any insights?!?!

SDA’s believe that God the Father along with Michael & Lucifer the Archangels were flesh, organ and blood hominids…
…They claimed that believing otherwise is “Pantheism”.

SDA Teaching:
OF late the question has repeatedly come to me, Does it make any real difference whether we believe in the personality of God, as long as we believe in God? My answer invariably is, It depends altogether upon the standpoint from which we view it. If from. the Spiritualist’s, ,the Christian Scientist’s, the Universalist’s, or if from the standpoint of any other " ist " or " ism," it makes but little or no difference. But from the standpoint of Seventh-day Adventists it makes all the difference in the world. No man who is a Seventh-day Adventist can understandingly take that position; neither can 'a Seventh-day Adventist 'hold that position for a moment. In it is involved a denial of the " Father and the Son," the law of Moses, the prophets, the psalms, the holy angels, the personality of the devil, and all that is according to sound doctrine.

Page 9 “Personality of God” article
docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19031008-V80-40__B.pdf#view=fit

There are many statements to be found in SDA teachings that affirm God the Father and Michael and Lucifer the Archangels had flesh…
…This is BEFORE Michael became Christ or as Ellen White teaches “the war in heaven”.