The Father

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Churchman25

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When we say the Son was born out of the father before all ages in mass is this implying that Jesus was created by the father? So my other question is does this apply to the Holy Spirit as well?
 
Trinity is a difficult Thing to comprehend. This is the best way I know.
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved
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Churchman25 said:
When we say the Son was born out of the father before all ages in mass is this implying that Jesus was created by the father? So my other question is does this apply to the Holy Spirit as well?
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We don’t use the word ‘created.’ Created only applies to the angels and the material universe, that is, to ‘creatures,’ and the Son is not a creature. We say the Son was begotten or generated by the Father before all ages, meaning there was never a time when the Son was not. Because in order to be father the Father has to have a son, and since the Father is always the Father, therefore He always had a Son. The Holy Spirit is then said to proceed from the Father and Son.

It is a way of saying all essence or being comes from the Father.
 
That’s a great explanation, but does it not leave your mind to immediately perceive the Spirit as coming after the Father and Son, and therefore not co-equal.?
 
rweidn said:
That’s a great explanation, but does it not leave your mind to immediately perceive the Spirit as coming after the Father and Son, and therefore not co-equal.?
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God exists outside of time; there is no “coming after.” He is I AM, self-existence before time, hence, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are eternally existent.
 
rweidn said:
That’s a great explanation, but does it not leave your mind to immediately perceive the Spirit as coming after the Father and Son, and therefore not co-equal.?
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I believe it was Augustine that thought of the Holy Spirit as the love between the Father and Son. Since the Father was always the Father and the Son always the Son, there was always the love between them and hence always the Holy Spirit.

I suppose conceptually you might think of an order of precedence since all essence comes from the Father, but this is not an order in time, not a temporal order.
 
mackbrislawn said:
I believe it was Augustine that thought of the Holy Spirit as the love between the Father and Son. Since the Father was always the Father and the Son always the Son, there was always the love between them and hence always the Holy Spirit.

I suppose conceptually you might think of an order of precedence since all essence comes from the Father, but this is not an order in time, not a temporal order.
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I think Aquinas is clear that we should avoid any language that would establish any sort of precedence or priority (or any other type of ranking) among the Divine Persons:
I answer that, Order always has reference to some principle. Wherefore since there are many kinds of principle–namely, according to site, as a point; according to intellect, as the principle of demonstration; and according to each individual cause–so are there many kinds of order. Now principle, according to origin, without priority, exists in God as we have stated (I:33:1: so there must likewise be order according to origin, without priority; and this is called ‘the order of nature’: in the words of Augustine (Contra Maxim. iv): “Not whereby one is prior to another, but whereby one is from another.”
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newadvent.org/summa/1042.htm#article3
 
Churchman25 said:
When we say the Son was born out of the father before all ages in mass is this implying that Jesus was created by the father? So my other question is does this apply to the Holy Spirit as well?
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God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit is ONE GOD in Eternal Essence.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are distinct in person in Presence.

The procession of the divine economy referenced in the Mass as professed in the Profession of faith, is a reflection of John 1:1-14, that describes the Word as being God and the Word became flesh, which points to both the eternal action of the Son eternally begotten of the Father, and the Word that became flesh in time and presence.

The Son or Word, who is eternally begotten of the Father is not made or not created. The mystery of the Word who proceeds from the Father eternally, Makes the Father known in (Presence) time and space, confirmed by the Holy Spirit in Presence, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Simply stated; The Father, speaks the Word who is Son and the Breath who is Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Word (Son) makes divine revelation known from eternity and in Presence to our humanity.

God who lives, speaks, and breathes reveals the divine economy in Trinity of persons in Presence. There is no creation, nothing born as defined in time and space, which is revealed in the divine economy, which is an eternal procession in Trinity of persons who is never separated, never confused or divided, yet each person of the Trinity is distinct in presence known.

Peace be with you
 
This is what I mean when on another thread I said religious language doesn’t do much for me. Nothing written so far makes much sense. It seems to me that the Father Son language speaks more about relationship that time sequence. "Eternally begotten "? How does that make any sense?
 
mackbrislawn said:
It seems from the above, order is accepted. “Therefore, in God order exists.”
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He explicitly says it is without priority or greater dignity. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are only ever said to be equal to each other. There is no superiority or inferiority or any other ranking in the Trinity. They are equal.
 
PluniaZ said:
He explicitly says it is without priority or greater dignity. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are only ever said to be equal to each other. There is no superiority or inferiority or any other ranking in the Trinity. They are equal.
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Exactly true. There is no order in terms of equality or dignity.
 
PluniaZ said:
He explicitly says it is without priority or greater dignity. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are only ever said to be equal to each other. There is no superiority or inferiority or any other ranking in the Trinity. They are equal.
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How would you explain this contradiction?

John 14:28
  • You heard me tell you, ‘I am going away and I will come back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
This is what I mean when on another thread I said religious language doesn’t do much for me. Nothing written so far makes much sense. It seems to me that the Father Son language speaks more about relationship that time sequence. "Eternally begotten "? How does that make any sense?
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When one uses the language of the Catholic Church (CCC) one cannot go wrong.

“Eternally begotten” is describing the eternal procession of the divine economy.

When man speaks or begets a word from his being, that word and breath proceeds from man’s being. That word which man speaks makes man’s revelation known, the breath although invisible proceeds from both the man’s being and word, knowledge is made known by all three distinctly. Nevertheless, all three are One man in presence making man known distinctly man’s knowledge.

Now multiply this procession by infinity times eternity. The Father who is eternal Essence, eternally begets the Word. Although that Word is God, The Word is made known distinctly from the Father, where there is no time and space from that which is eternal existing.

When the Word became flesh, the Presence of God is made known in space and time. Yet the eternal begetting of the Son from the Father has no beginning and no end, thus no creation and nothing created.

The scriptures confirm that the Father sends the Son or begets the Son, in eternity the Father eternally begets the Son and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son. The Church receives divine revelation from the divine economy of the procession of the Trinity of person’s divine.

Peace be with you
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
How would you explain this contradiction?

John 14:28
  • You heard me tell you, ‘I am going away and I will come back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
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Aquinas says:

“These words are to be understood of Christ’s human nature, wherein He is less than the Father, and subject to Him; but in His divine nature He is equal to the Father.”

newadvent.org/summa/1042.htm#article4
 
PluniaZ said:
Aquinas says:

“These words are to be understood of Christ’s human nature, wherein He is less than the Father, and subject to Him; but in His divine nature He is equal to the Father.”

newadvent.org/summa/1042.htm#article4
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Thank you:) I was not in disagreement of your post nor Aquinas. I offered the challenge to reveal the bigger picture of the second person of the Trinity in procession is not greater than the Father.

Yet, as you eloquently posted, “but in His divine nature He is equal to the Father”.

I believe an understanding of the Presence of God (in procession) is not to be confused with the divine Essence of God.

That which proceeds in the divine economy reveals distinctly the order of divine revelation, when the Son incarnate can give divine revelation, “The Father is greater than I”.

Peace be with you
 
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