The Fathers and the Talmud

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Hi.
Does anyone know if the Fathers were familiar with the Talmud? I’m particularly interested in finding out if they had much to say about passages referring to Jesus and Our Lady.

Thanks. 🙂
 
Llanbedr said:
Hi.
Does anyone know if the Fathers were familiar with the Talmud? I’m particularly interested in finding out if they had much to say about passages referring to Jesus and Our Lady.

Thanks. 🙂
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What passages about them?

I’m sure you’ll find them in the ‘StormFront Talmud’ or in any other ‘Jewsarejusttoonaughtyforwords Talmud’ but I’d be interested to hear of where they are in the Jewish Talmud.
 
Kaninchen said:
What passages about them?

I’m sure you’ll find them in the ‘StormFront Talmud’ or in any other ‘Jewsarejusttoonaughtyforwords Talmud’ but I’d be interested to hear of where they are in the Jewish Talmud.
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You’ve denied such passages before, but how to do you explain the multitude of scholars and historians that see those passages as referring to Jesus? Are they wrong?
 
Hi, Kaninchen.
The execution of Jesus is mentioned in Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a. The fate of Jesus in ‘hell’ is also somewhere in the Babylonian Talmud, as is his alleged illegitimate birth by Mary, but I don’t have references to hand.

I’m pretty sure Jerome and Justin Martyr allude, at least, to rabbinical exegesis found in the Babylonian Talmud, but I’m after references if possible.

Peace be with you.🙂
 
Windfish said:
You’ve denied such passages before, but how to do you explain the multitude of scholars and historians that see those passages as referring to Jesus? Are they wrong?
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You’d have to be somewhat more precise when talking about what I’ve said - there’s a difference between talking about references that might vaguely be talking about Jesus - ‘Yeshua who lived in X did this’ (which would be a bit like saying ‘Dave who lived in Y did this’ today) and my dealing with passages that are taken entirely out of context or are completely manufactured of the ‘Gentiles eat babies for breakfast’ variety where the passage doesn’t exist or originally read ‘what if Gentiles eat babies for breakfast’ or ‘the completely bonkers say Gentiles eat babies for breakfast’ variety.

I don’t remember talking about the ‘possibly Jesus’ references but, in nearly 6000 posts in over 4 years, I may be wrong.

As to the ‘multitude of scholars and historians’, I have my doubts. I wasn’t aware that there were a multitude of Christian scholars and historians of the Talmud but the references I’ve seen quoted seem pretty doubtful to me.

The thing is that the Talmud isn’t a narrative history, it’s a collection of arguments and themes with all sorts of odd references to things.
 
Kaninchen:
Whilst we’re on the subject, could I just ask you about the miracle of the oil celebrated at hannukah - I believe that this is also something which is derived from the writings recorded in the Talmud?
I know that 1 and 2 Maccabees - two of my favourite books in Scripture - fail to mention anything about lacking oil, or the supply of oil, in the passages concerning the cleansing and re-dedication of the temple.
It would be great to find a reference to this miracle amongst the writings of the fathers.

Peace be with you.🙂
 
A nice summary of the Jesus passages in the Talmud is found in Peter Schäfer’s Jesus in the Talmud. (Schäfer is the Perelman Professor of Jewish Studies at Princeton, as well as the Director of the Program in Jewish Studies, as the chief editor of a major academic journal, Jewish Studies Quarterly. Many consider him to be the leading gentile expert on the Talmud.)

Since the Talmud was not redacted until about 500, the early Church Fathers make little mention of it, although oral traditions are mentioned in various places, dating back to Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho.

Later medieval catholic commentators made extensive use of the Talmud, and various passages in it were used to to proselytize Jews. Hyam Maccoby gives an entertaining (although Jewish-centric) account of medieval disputations in his book Judaism on Trial: Jewish-Christian Disputations in the Middle Ages
 
Llanbedr said:
Kaninchen:
Whilst we’re on the subject, could I just ask you about the miracle of the oil celebrated at hannukah - I believe that this is also something which is derived from the writings recorded in the Talmud?
I know that 1 and 2 Maccabees - two of my favourite books in Scripture - fail to mention anything about lacking oil, or the supply of oil, in the passages concerning the cleansing and re-dedication of the temple.
It would be great to find a reference to this miracle amongst the writings of the fathers.

Peace be with you.🙂
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There is a reference to Chanukah in the New Testament at John 10:22. Since the Hasmonean dynasty was ill-regarded by the authors of the Talmud, there is only passing reference to the holiday; the miracle of the oil is described at Shabbat 21b. A more full account is given by Josephus.

There is a vague reference to a similar (but ultimately different) story in 2 Maccabees 1:18 (also on the 25th of Kislev.)
 
Llanbedr said:
Kaninchen:
Whilst we’re on the subject, could I just ask you about the miracle of the oil celebrated at hannukah - I believe that this is also something which is derived from the writings recorded in the Talmud?
I know that 1 and 2 Maccabees - two of my favourite books in Scripture - fail to mention anything about lacking oil, or the supply of oil, in the passages concerning the cleansing and re-dedication of the temple.
It would be great to find a reference to this miracle amongst the writings of the fathers.

Peace be with you.🙂
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Well, I’ve not the slightest idea of what the ‘fathers’ say about it 🙂 but the Talmud talks about the Maccabees finding a pot of oil that should have lasted one day but lasted for eight days.
 
Bible Reader and Kaninchen:

Thank you both very much for the above - I really do appreciate your responses/help.

Peace be with you.🙂
 
Llanbedr said:
Bible Reader and Kaninchen:

Thank you both very much for the above - I really do appreciate your responses/help.

Peace be with you.🙂
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I think it’s important to understand what Talmud is and I’ve been trying to think of some kind of analogy - only to come up with an obvious one, CAF.

Suppose you were studying the Catholic Church, if you read CAF, then you’ll discover a mixture of depths of understandings, lots of discussion (some more revealing than others), a lot of lore, a lot of legend, a lot of wisdom and a lot of oddities. You wouldn’t ‘believe in’ CAF but - if you worked hard at it and developed a practiced eye - in the end you’d learn quite a bit and CAF could, in some senses, be described as ‘commentary’ on Catholic themes and ideas.
 
Llanbedr said:
Hi, Kaninchen.
The execution of Jesus is mentioned in Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a. The fate of Jesus in ‘hell’ is also somewhere in the Babylonian Talmud, as is his alleged illegitimate birth by Mary, but I don’t have references to hand.

I’m pretty sure Jerome and Justin Martyr allude, at least, to rabbinical exegesis found in the Babylonian Talmud, but I’m after references if possible.

Peace be with you.🙂
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If you believe that the Yeshu being discussed in the Talmud Sanhedrin 43a is the person you know as Jesus then you must also conclude:
  1. Jesus was hung and not crucified
  2. For 40 days before the execution a herald was sent throughout the land looking for anyone who would speak in his defense but not a single person was found
  3. Jesus had influential government connections
  4. Jesus did not participate at the last supper as he had been hung just prior to the beginning of passover
  5. Jesus had not 12 but 5 disciples and all five were also executed. Four of the disciples had name which absolutely no connection to the names of the disciples in the Christian scriptures
    (still think that Yeshu in the Talmud is the Jesus of the Christian scriptures?)
This Yeshu in the Talmud lived a century before the Jesus of the Christian scriptures
(still not convinced?)

This Yeshu in the Talmud was executed by the Jewish court and not by the Romans
(??? - so I guess what your saying is that the Jews really did kill Jesus:shrug:)

I think this site may be of interest
talmud.faithweb.com/
 
chosen_people said:
If you believe that the Yeshu being discussed in the Talmud Sanhedrin 43a is the person you know as Jesus then you must also conclude:
  1. Jesus was hung and not crucified
  2. For 40 days before the execution a herald was sent throughout the land looking for anyone who would speak in his defense but not a single person was found
  3. Jesus had influential government connections
  4. Jesus did not participate at the last supper as he had been hung just prior to the beginning of passover
  5. Jesus had not 12 but 5 disciples and all five were also executed. Four of the disciples had name which absolutely no connection to the names of the disciples in the Christian scriptures
    (still think that Yeshu in the Talmud is the Jesus of the Christian scriptures?)
This Yeshu in the Talmud lived a century before the Jesus of the Christian scriptures
(still not convinced?)

This Yeshu in the Talmud was executed by the Jewish court and not by the Romans
(??? - so I guess what your saying is that the Jews really did kill Jesus:shrug:)

I think this site may be of interest
talmud.faithweb.com/
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Hello, Chosen:

The vast weight of scholarly and historical evidence and opinion does support that this passage is indeed about Jesus of Nazareth. The most ancient, uncensored (censored by both Christians and Jews for various reasons over the centuries) all read ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ - See: Peter Schafer, Jesus in the Talmud, p.64 and p.168 footnote 11, Princeton University Press; and: Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a, Steinsaltz edition, Vol XVII, Part III.

The Jewish Encyclopedia has this to say:

"… some medieval apologists for Judaism, as Nachmanides and Salman Zebi, … [asserted] that the “Yeshu’” mentioned in the Talmud was not identical with Jesus; this, however, is merely a subterfuge.’

As for the actual details contained in the execution narrative, nobody is actually claiming that this is a factual re-telling - far from it - this is polemic, not history! Crucifixion, might I add, is routinely referred to as ‘hanging’, and is even referred to as such in the Scriptures.

Could I just say, also, that if you’re trying to suggest that I am pushing some kind of anti-Semitic ‘the Jews killed Our Lord’ agenda, then I’m afraid you are way, way wide of the mark. Just go back and read my original question - I am interested in if, and what, the Fathers may have had to say about the details contained in the Talmud - I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in stirring up any kind of disputation, and I’m not really interested at all in whether the Talmud actually refers to Jesus of Nazareth, just whether the Fathers thought it did, and what they may have had to say about it.

Peace be with you.🙂
 
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