The Fatima Center

[LoyalViews]

On their website, there is an ad for a book that condemns EWTN. I have also read a bit about Fr. Gruener, and he seems to be a little “at-odds” with rome over the 3rd secret of Fatima. Are they at odds? Are they anti-EWTN???

 

[Lancer]

Poor Father Gruner…he is a spiritual enigma in my opinion. Below is a quote re: him and his "not being in good standing with the Church…sad!

Nicholas Nightingale Gruner (born May 4, 1942) is a Roman Catholic priest and promoter of the message of Our Lady of Fatima, a manifestation of the Virgin Mary at Fatima, Portugal in 1917, particularly its anti-communist aspects during the Cold War. However, the apostolic nuncio, Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo Higuera, in an August 10, 2004 clarification on his priestly status specifically stated that Gruner is “not a priest in good standing with the Roman Catholic Church.”[1]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Gruner

Also…another site below with more details about Father Gruner and his standing in the Chruch…the details are not very pretty! When obedience to the Church (Pope and your Bishop) disappears or is rationalized away…then I guess anything can happen to a soul. It is a reminder to myself…to be very cautious about placing myself outside or in opposition to the Church…bad (spiritual) business to do so…in poker it is called playing a “Dead Man’s Hand”…it looks real good to you…like a real winning hand…but you end up dead!

unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FATHER%20NICHOLAS%20GRUNER.html

Pax Christi

 

[LoyalViews]

And, I keep getting messages from “The Fatima Center”, and not to long ago, I got a “lenten card” from him. I have tried to get off of their mailing list, because of ther “anti-EWTNness”, but I can’t find a way

 

[AlanF]

Actually, Father Gruner is not suspended.

I have tried to get off of their mailing list, because of ther "anti-EWTNness"

LOL Clearly disliking the Most High EWTN is a mortal sin…

 

[cyberwolf001]

Actually, Father Gruner is not suspended.

LOL Clearly disliking the Most High EWTN is a mortal sin…

I have always been shocked by how high up Catholics put that station, you’d think someone was going after the Eucharist when it (EWTN) is criticized, an by going after I mean breaking into a Parish, smashing a few statues and making off with consecrated hosts to do things that I will leave to your imaginations.

When did this station got elevated so high?

 

[puzzleannie]

is this a trash EWTN thread or a trash Nicholas Gruner thread. please decide and stay on topic, anyone care to answer OP’s question? no it is not a website that will provide anything of value to a good Catholic. If you have questions about the priest in question the reliable answer will come from his bishop, not from advocacy blogs on either side.

 

[thomas_jd]

The web site is not approved by Rome as a teaching aspect of Fatima. It has no authority .
Look to the “World Apostolate of Fatima”. They are a Public International Association of the Christian Faithful, erected by the Holy See, that has received the mission to teach Christian doctrine in the name of the Church.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Actually, Father Gruner is not suspended.

LOL Clearly disliking the Most High EWTN is a mortal sin…

That seems to be his opinion vs that of the Congregation for the Clergy and the Apostolic Signature, per EWTN’s canon law experts.

Finally, in recent years there has been a certain lack of clarity regarding the priestly status of Fr. Gruner. According to the the Congregation for the Clergy, his priestly faculties (jurisdiction permitting celebration of the sacraments) have been suspended and his appeal of that suspension rejected by the highest Church court, the Apostolic Signature. However, I understand that he continues to publicly celebrant the sacraments, justifying it by arguments for the canonical invalidity of his suspension. What efforts he is making to settle this matter is not known.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

He seems to dislike others besides EWTN

Some time later was the turn of another group, headquartered in Canada, which publishes the magazine “The Fatima Crusader”,[8] which comes out every four months. For years this group has insisted with the Holy Father that he take some measures which they think necessary for the implementation of the message of Fatima regarding peace in the world. In the book titled “Devil’s Final Battle”,[9] after “formally accusing” Cardinals Angelo Sodano, Joseph Ratzinger, Dario Castrillon Hoyos and Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, now also a Cardinal, it ends asking “insistently” the Holy Father for “the destitution of the accused from the posts they occupy and their substitution by Prelates who would be willing to work with the Holy Father – honouring the appeals of the Virgin of Fatima – instead of trying to conform the message of Fatima, received from Heaven, with fallible human decisions, thence giving birth to a damaging new orientation of the Church”(p. 273).

the experience and pastoral projects of the Shrine of Fatima In an ecumenical environment

 

[curlycool89]

I don’t usually wander into the Traditional Catholicism section, but now that I’m here I guess I’ll add my 2 cents.

If you have questions about the priest in question the reliable answer will come from his bishop, not from advocacy blogs on either side.

That is really the problem. Fr. Gruner is currently practicing illicitly. He is currently not incardinated in any diocese, and therefore does not have any faculties at all. But you don’t take it from me, my prof/priest wrote his thesis for his canon law doctorate on incardination, and he’s the one who told us this.

The story that I got is that he went to a seminary in Ontario, and then the Bishop refused to ordain him. He then went to another bishop in Ontario who also refused. He finally was ordained by a Bishop in Italy, and then just took off for Canada. They actually tried to get him shipped back to Italy, but now the Italian Bishop doesn’t want him either. Last I head was that Rome has ordered him back to Italy (obviously, he’s not listening).

 

[VitaminC]

Poor Father Gruner…he is a spiritual enigma in my opinion. Below is a quote re: him and his "not being in good standing with the Church…sad!
Also…another site below with more details about Father Gruner and his standing in the Chruch…the details are not very pretty! When obedience to the Church (Pope and your Bishop) disappears or is rationalized away…then I guess anything can happen to a soul. It is a reminder to myself…to be very cautious about placing myself outside or in opposition to the Church…bad (spiritual) business to do so…in poker it is called playing a “Dead Man’s Hand”…it looks real good to you…like a real winning hand…but you end up dead!

unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FATHER%20NICHOLAS%20GRUNER.html

Pax Christi

Actually, the UP page you reference is full of garbage and incorrect information. He refers heavily to the Carlos Evaristo interview with Sr. Lucy, who afterwards published a pamphlet. A priest and lawyer present at the interview issued a statement saying that Evaristo lied. Evaristo afterwards more or less admitted to it, saying he had a bad memory and had reconstructed the interview. A Vatican spokesperson also denied the claim by Evaristo about Gorbachev and the Pope.

 

[VitaminC]

On their website, there is an ad for a book that condemns EWTN. I have also read a bit about Fr. Gruener, and he seems to be a little “at-odds” with rome over the 3rd secret of Fatima. Are they at odds? Are they anti-EWTN???

Yes, to both questions.

It’s the position of those affiliated with the Fatima Center that EWTN has become too liberal since the departure of Mother Angelica. Also, shortly before Mother Angelica left the network, she blurted out with respect to the Third Secret one day that she was one of those who didn’t think we got the whole thing (close to her exact words).

It was very soon after this that Mother Angelica left the network, and ever since then the network has been heavily supportive of Cardinal Bertone’s claims about Fatima.

And as to Fatima, regardless of the collateral attacks on Fr. Gruner’s priestly status, the fact of the matter is that the bulk of the evidence suggests that the full Third Secret has yet to be released, and that Fr. Gruner and others are telling the truth. Fr. Gruner also isn’t the only priest claiming this. For example, Fr. Kramer wrote probably the most well-known book on the scandal, and he is a priest in good standing and concurs with Fr. Gruner. Not long before his death, Fr. Malachi Martin angrily stated in a taped interview that the Vatican had published forged letters in Sr. Lucia’s name and “put statements on her lips she never made.”

The version of the 3rd Secret released by the Vatican in 2000 was hand-written on four sheets of paper.

Cardinal Ottaviani in a press conference said the Secret was written on a single sheet of paper of 25 lines. Fr. Martin, who read it in 1960, also said it was written on a single sheet of paper. Bishop Venancio also stated it was written on a single sheet of paper, and even gave the size of the margins. The official Fatima archivist for the Vatican said that Sr. Lucia also said it was written on a single piece of paper.

What we got in 2000 from the Vatican was a supplementary vision of 60+ lines and 4 pages, and not the 3rd Secret itself.

And that’s just the beginning. There’s so much more evidence beyond this.

 

[Like]

Yes, to both questions.

It’s the position of those affiliated with the Fatima Center that EWTN has become too liberal since the departure of Mother Angelica. Also, shortly before Mother Angelica left the network, she blurted out with respect to the Third Secret one day that she was one of those who didn’t think we got the whole thing (close to her exact words).

How about you post the source of these words of Mother Angelica and not heresay.

It was very soon after this that Mother Angelica left the network, and ever since then the network has been heavily supportive of Cardinal Bertone’s claims about Fatima.

And as to Fatima, regardless of the collateral attacks on Fr. Gruner’s priestly status, the fact of the matter is that the bulk of the evidence suggests that the full Third Secret has yet to be released, and that Fr. Gruner and others are telling the truth. Fr. Gruner also isn’t the only priest claiming this. For example, Fr. Kramer wrote probably the most well-known book on the scandal, and he is a priest in good standing and concurs with Fr. Gruner.
What scandal?
What’s the name of this book & who is Fr.Kramer?
Not long before his death, Fr. Malachi Martin angrily stated in a taped interview that the Vatican had published forged letters in Sr. Lucia’s name and “put statements on her lips she never made.”

What taped interview & by who?
The version of the 3rd Secret released by the Vatican in 2000 was hand-written on four sheets of paper.
SOURCES, SOURCES?
Cardinal Ottaviani in a press conference said the Secret was written on a single sheet of paper of 25 lines.Sources? Fr. Martin, who read it in 1960, also said it was written on a single sheet of paper.
Sources? (I’m starting to sound like a broken record here.) Who allowed him to read this back in 1960? Bishop Venancio also stated it was written on a single sheet of paper, and even gave the size of the margins. The official Fatima archivist for the Vatican said that Sr. Lucia also said it was written on a single piece of paper.

What we got in 2000 from the Vatican was a supplementary vision of 60+ lines and 4 pages, and not the 3rd Secret itself.

And that’s just the beginning. There’s so much more evidence beyond this.

You’ve failed to provide any proves/sources yet. So, if you were to do
so just on what you have typed, maybe no farther evidence would be necessary.

I have a very hard time with Catholic, especially
those calling themselves Traditionalist Catholics, that accuse two Popes, Sr. Lucia & Cardinals liars!

 

[VitaminC]

You’ve failed to provide any proves/sources yet. So, if you were to do
so just on what you have typed, maybe no farther evidence would be necessary.

(Copy of earlier posting with sources included):

Yes, to both questions.

It’s the position of those affiliated with the Fatima Center that EWTN has become too liberal since the departure of Mother Angelica. Also, shortly before Mother Angelica left the network, she blurted out with respect to the Third Secret one day that she was one of those who didn’t think we got the whole thing (close to her exact words).[sup] [1][/sup]

It was very soon after this that Mother Angelica left the network, and ever since then the network has been heavily supportive of Cardinal Bertone’s claims about Fatima.

And as to Fatima, regardless of the collateral attacks on Fr. Gruner’s priestly status, the fact of the matter is that the bulk of the evidence suggests that the full Third Secret has yet to be released, and that Fr. Gruner and others are telling the truth. Fr. Gruner also isn’t the only priest claiming this. For example, Fr. Paul Kramer wrote probably the most well-known book on the scandal[sup][2][/sup], and he is a priest in good standing and concurs with Fr. Gruner. Not long before his death, Fr. Malachi Martin angrily stated in a taped interview that the Vatican had published forged letters in Sr. Lucia’s name and “put statements on her lips she never made.”[sup][3][/sup]

The version of the 3rd Secret released by the Vatican in 2000 was hand-written on four sheets of paper.[sup][7][/sup]

Cardinal Ottaviani in a press conference said the Secret was written on a single sheet of paper of 25 lines.[sup][4][/sup] Fr. Martin, who read it in 1960, also said it was written on a single sheet of paper.[sup][5][/sup] Bishop Venancio also stated it was written on a single sheet of paper, and even gave the size of the margins.[sup][6][/sup] The official Fatima archivist for the Vatican said that Sr. Lucia also said it was written on a single piece of paper.[sup][4][/sup]

What we got in 2000 from the Vatican was a supplementary vision of 60+ lines and 4 pages, and not the 3rd Secret itself. [sup][7][/sup]

And that’s just the beginning. There’s so much more evidence beyond this.

[1] Mother Angelica Live, May 16, 2001.
[2] The Devil’s Final Battle (2002). Fr. Paul Kramer. Book is available in both print form and on a website: devilsfinalbattle.com/content2.htm
[3] Father Malachi Martin interviewed by Bernard Janzen, Deserted Vineyard (Tape 3)
[4] The Devil’s Final Battle, Chapter 4, citing Alonso, Father Joaquin (1976). La Verdad sobre el Secreto de Fatima. Spain. p. 60. See also: Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite (1990), The Whole Truth About Fatima - Vol. III, p. 725.
[5] Father Malachi Martin on Coast to Coast AM, with interviewer Art Bell. July 13, 1998.
Also see: Doran, Brian (11 August 2000), Malachi Martin: God’s Messenger – In the Words of Those Who Knew Him Best, Audio Cassette.
[6] Frère François de Marie des Anges (1994). Fatima: Tragedy and Triumph. New York, U.S.A… p. 45. Also see: Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite (1990), The Whole Truth About Fatima, Volume III. Buffalo, New York, U.S.A… p. 481.
[7] See scanned pages of Third Secret at Vatican website: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[LoyalViews]

(Copy of earlier posting with sources included):

Yes, to both questions.

It’s the position of those affiliated with the Fatima Center that EWTN has become too liberal since the departure of Mother Angelica. Also, shortly before Mother Angelica left the network, she blurted out with respect to the Third Secret one day that she was one of those who didn’t think we got the whole thing (close to her exact words).[sup] [1][/sup]

It was very soon after this that Mother Angelica left the network, and ever since then the network has been heavily supportive of Cardinal Bertone’s claims about Fatima.

And as to Fatima, regardless of the collateral attacks on Fr. Gruner’s priestly status, the fact of the matter is that the bulk of the evidence suggests that the full Third Secret has yet to be released, and that Fr. Gruner and others are telling the truth. Fr. Gruner also isn’t the only priest claiming this. For example, Fr. Paul Kramer wrote probably the most well-known book on the scandal[sup][2][/sup], and he is a priest in good standing and concurs with Fr. Gruner. Not long before his death, Fr. Malachi Martin angrily stated in a taped interview that the Vatican had published forged letters in Sr. Lucia’s name and “put statements on her lips she never made.”[sup][3][/sup]

The version of the 3rd Secret released by the Vatican in 2000 was hand-written on four sheets of paper.[sup][7][/sup]

Cardinal Ottaviani in a press conference said the Secret was written on a single sheet of paper of 25 lines.[sup][4][/sup] Fr. Martin, who read it in 1960, also said it was written on a single sheet of paper.[sup][5][/sup] Bishop Venancio also stated it was written on a single sheet of paper, and even gave the size of the margins.[sup][6][/sup] The official Fatima archivist for the Vatican said that Sr. Lucia also said it was written on a single piece of paper.[sup][4][/sup]

What we got in 2000 from the Vatican was a supplementary vision of 60+ lines and 4 pages, and not the 3rd Secret itself. [sup][7][/sup]

And that’s just the beginning. There’s so much more evidence beyond this.

[1] Mother Angelica Live, May 16, 2001.
[2] The Devil’s Final Battle (2002). Fr. Paul Kramer. Book is available in both print form and on a website: devilsfinalbattle.com/content2.htm
[3] Father Malachi Martin interviewed by Bernard Janzen, Deserted Vineyard (Tape 3)
[4] The Devil’s Final Battle, Chapter 4, citing Alonso, Father Joaquin (1976). La Verdad sobre el Secreto de Fatima. Spain. p. 60. See also: Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite (1990), The Whole Truth About Fatima - Vol. III, p. 725.
[5] Father Malachi Martin on Coast to Coast AM, with interviewer Art Bell. July 13, 1998.
Also see: Doran, Brian (11 August 2000), Malachi Martin: God’s Messenger – In the Words of Those Who Knew Him Best, Audio Cassette.
[6] Frère François de Marie des Anges (1994). Fatima: Tragedy and Triumph. New York, U.S.A… p. 45. Also see: Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite (1990), The Whole Truth About Fatima, Volume III. Buffalo, New York, U.S.A… p. 481.
[7] See scanned pages of Third Secret at Vatican website: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Now, the way that you present this, is that you are at odds with the Vatican too over the issue that they never released the full secret. The Vatican did release the full secret, for our Holy Father at the time, John Paul II (God Bless his soul ), would never lie to us!

 

[VitaminC]

Now, the way that you present this, is that you are at odds with the Vatican too over the issue that they never released the full secret. The Vatican did release the full secret, for our Holy Father at the time, John Paul II (God Bless his soul ), would never lie to us!

Pope JPII didn’t author the pamphlet. It was co-authored by Cardinal Bertone and Cardinal Ratzinger, along with additional transcribed commentary by Cardinal Sodano.

On 13 May 2000, Pope JPII said the message of fatima was a warning about the Apocalypse. In particular he said the Secret was a warning to “have nothing to do with the ‘dragon’ whose ‘tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth’.” It was a reference to Apocalypse 12:3-4. There’s nothing about this in the Bertone/Ratzinger/Sodano release.

 

[thomas_jd]

Pope JPII didn’t author the pamphlet. It was co-authored by Cardinal Bertone and Cardinal Ratzinger, along with additional transcribed commentary by Cardinal Sodano.

On 13 May 2000, Pope JPII said the message of fatima was a warning about the Apocalypse. In particular he said the Secret was a warning to “have nothing to do with the ‘dragon’ whose ‘tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth’.” It was a reference to Apocalypse 12:3-4. There’s nothing about this in the Bertone/Ratzinger/Sodano release.

The “PAMPHLET” was issued by the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith.
Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone( Secretary Of the Congregation) writes the introduction.
The PAMPHLET concludes with the signature of Joseph Card. Ratzinger then"Perfect of the Congregation of Faith." Now known as Pope Benedict XVI. The Pope wrote the concluding article THE THEOLOGICAL COMMENTARY. THE POPES APPROVAL IS OBVIOUS to anyone whom has read this booklet.
The World Apostolate of Fatima ,the official Public Association charged by Rome to teach the message of Fatima, stated the consencration of russia to Mary has been completed.
Not to mention two popes,Sister Lucia herself, her Archbishop that have all asserted the consceration happened over twenty-five years ago.

If our Late Pope said “have nothing to do with the dragon.” That may well be part of the message. It certainly is advice to live your life by.
Yet my personal view is "Penance, Penance, Reparition of all sins, daily sacrifice offered in REPARITION, amend your lives. Stop sinning. Pray the rosary daily, wear the brown scapular, attend the first five saturdays in reparation for the offences committed against Mary,s Immaculate Heart.
Your various posting on Fatima offers no data from the Vatican in support of your claims.
I caution attacking Rome based on conspiracy theories .Thats been done before without much sucess
I

 

[VitaminC]

The “PAMPHLET” was issued by the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith.
Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone( Secretary Of the Congregation) writes the introduction.
The PAMPHLET concludes with the signature of Joseph Card. Ratzinger then"Perfect of the Congregation of Faith." Now known as Pope Benedict XVI. The Pope wrote the concluding article THE THEOLOGICAL COMMENTARY. THE POPES APPROVAL IS OBVIOUS to anyone whom has read this booklet.

Just to make certain it’s clear to everyone, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the theological commentary, not Pope JPII.

The World Apostolate of Fatima ,the official Public Association charged by Rome to teach the message of Fatima, stated the consencration of russia to Mary has been completed.
Not to mention two popes,Sister Lucia herself, her Archbishop that have all asserted the consceration happened over twenty-five years ago.

Actually, in a September 1985 interview with *Sol de Fatima * magazine (a Blue Army publication, no less), Sr. Lucia confirmed that the last consecration had failed because there was no mention of Russia and there wasn’t substantial participation of the world’s episcopate.

Sr. Lucia was interviewed by reporter Enrique Romero in 1987 when she went out to vote. She was asked about the consecration and she said the last consecration had failed.
This was reported in an early August edition of the Argentinian publication Para Ti.

It wasn’t until around 1989 that these claims that the last consecration had been successful started appearing. And Fr. Coelho confirmed that this was preceded by an order from the Vatican to Sr. Lucia’s order and people who knew her to start saying the consecration had been completed. After that, letters of questionable authenticity began appearing by Sr. Lucia. Fr. Malachi Martin stated in a taped interview with respect to Sr. Lucia that prelates within the Vatican had “published forged letters in her name; they’ve made her say things she didn’t want to say. They put statements on her lips she never made.” (Father Malachi Martin interviewed by Bernard Janzen, Deserted Vineyard (Tape 3).

 

[thomas_jd]

John Haffert, co founder of the “Blue Army” writes in his book:“There are some who deny this because the Pope did not explicitly mention Russia in the act of consecration. They ignore that all the bishops of the world had been sent the entire document of the consecration of Russsia made by Pope Pius XII in 1954, which John Paul II was now renewing in union with all the worlds bishops.Sister Lucia said positively that this was accepted by God.” Gods Final Effort pg.21 #13 So much for the Blue army position.

Sister Lucia personally confirmed that this solemn and universal act of consencration corresponed to what Our Lady wished ( " Sim, esta feita, tal como Nossa Senhora a pediu, o dia 25 de marco de 1984".) " Yes it has been done just as Our Lady asked, on 25 March 1984." So much for Sister Lucia’s position.( (The Message of Fatima Congregation For The Doctrine of The Faith)
Introduction by Tarcisio Bertone, SDB Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli Secretary of the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith. The Churchs position.

Never rely on a article or possibly two in conflict with the Church’s official stance.
Believe whatever you wish, communion with the church or not, but this is all the time i will spend on this issue.

 

[VitaminC]

John Haffert, co founder of the “Blue Army” writes in his book:“There are some who deny this because the Pope did not explicitly mention Russia in the act of consecration. They ignore that all the bishops of the world had been sent the entire document of the consecration of Russsia made by Pope Pius XII in 1954, which John Paul II was now renewing in union with all the worlds bishops.Sister Lucia said positively that this was accepted by God.” Gods Final Effort pg.21 #13 So much for the Blue army position.

What do you mean, “So much for the Blue Army position.” Sr. Lucia explicitly stated in an interview with their magazine that the consecration failed. And they published the interview. This is pathetic.

Sister Lucia personally confirmed that this solemn and universal act of consencration corresponed to what Our Lady wished ( " Sim, esta feita, tal como Nossa Senhora a pediu, o dia 25 de marco de 1984".) " Yes it has been done just as Our Lady asked, on 25 March 1984." So much for Sister Lucia’s position.( (The Message of Fatima Congregation For The Doctrine of The Faith)
Introduction by Tarcisio Bertone, SDB Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli Secretary of the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith. The Churchs position.

Everyone knows what Cardinal Bertone says. He’s the primary individual accused of not telling the full truth about Fatima. He has no credibility left after the publication of The Secret Still Hidden, by Christopher Ferrara. The book contains an appendix titled, 101 Reasons to Doubt Cardinal Bertone’s Account. And there really are 101 reasons listed.