The Fatima People

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Lady_Diablo

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I’m wondering how people feel about Father Nicholas Gruner and the Fatima movement?
There seems to be much controversy about it yet we accept that the events at Fatima occurred. This being so, why is the Vatican attempting to silence Father Gruner and why is the Pope yet to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?
I don’t totally agree with the Fatima Cult—they seem extreme in may ways and constantly rant against the “rotten fruit” of Vatican 2 and are against interfaith dialogue, but at the same time, they have a point. Whether or not we totally agree, isn’t it better for all Bishops and the Holy Father to consecrate Russia to Mary? If nothing happens, they were wrong, but why risk world peace and prosperity because of Vatican beaurocracy?
Of course, I realise our Orthodox Russian friends deserve respect but the Orthodox Church loves Mary as dearly as we do!
 
I support Fr. Gruner, though with reservations, for as you rightly point out they do occasionally seem to go a bit overboard.

Nevertheless, I must confess that many people, myself included, have been reintroduced to the beauty of the Catholic Faith through the Fatima movement, and the message of Fatima has probably been proclaimed more effectively by Fr. Gruner than anyone else I know. Even TFP, with their America Needs Fatima, I do not believe convey the root of the message as well as Fr. Gruner does. In my experience I have only see it bear positive fruit, so there is little I can criticize it for. As Scripture says: “If God is with us, who can be against us?”

Again you are right, if the Fatima movement is wrong and the consecration of Russia avails nothing, where’s the loss? Mary will give her graces to Russia to convert? Horrors!😛
 
With all due respect to EnchantedEve, I would stay far away from Fr. Gruner who is not recognized by the Holy See. Although much good can come from Fr. Gruner’s group it is only because Fatima itself is good and approved not because of Fr. Gruner.

The better Fatima apostolate that is fully approved is either Fatima Family Apostolate International or World Apostolate of Fatima: The Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima who I guarantee you are doing far more to promote Fatima than Fr. Gruner’s organization could hope to. And, they are fully orthodox, and therefore reliable.
 
Father Gruner is a disobedient priest who has been recalled by the Vatican and he REFUSES to comply.His apostolate and masses he says are ILLICIT.
 
Lady_Diablo said:
I’m wondering how people feel about Father Nicholas Gruner and the Fatima movement?
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he and his movement are not “the Fatima people.” the “Fatima people” are the 3 children to whom Mary appeared and gave her message, to which the Church gave full approval. Gruner is a dissident priest cut from the same cloth as Call to Action, VOF, Catholics for Free Choice, and all other schismatic and dissident groups who deny the authoriy of the papacy and magesterium. How I feel about these people is irrelevant. how the Vatican feels, and their own bishops is relevant, and since they have not responded to the Church’s discipline, anyone who follows their route is equally to blame. They have NO point, and can have no standing in any matter related to interpreting and judging private revelation.
 
Della said:
With all due respect to EnchantedEve, I would stay far away from Fr. Gruner who is not recognized by the Holy See. Although much good can come from Fr. Gruner’s group it is only because Fatima itself is good and approved not because of Fr. Gruner.

The better Fatima apostolate that is fully approved is either Fatima Family Apostolate International or World Apostolate of Fatima: The Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima who I guarantee you are doing far more to promote Fatima than Fr. Gruner’s organization could hope to. And, they are fully orthodox, and therefore reliable.
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Hmmm, I am not sure disagreement with the Holy See necessarily equates to unorthodoxy, and I think that is being somewhat uncharitable to Fr. Gruner. I have never known him to preach unorthodoxy. I also think to deny him for the achievements he has made in promoting Fatima is also not kind. Many of the campaigns he has launched have generated the awareness of thousands of people, including bishops and priests. Only recently the Melkite Patriarch of Antioch, His Beatitude Gregorios III, spoke on Fr. Gruner’s behalf at St. Peter’s. The former Archbishop of Hydrabad in India was also a staunch supporter of his. While the Blue Army is a good organization, I must confess after having been a member for 10 years I see much less activity on their part in promoting Fatima. Even TFP seems to do more. Fatima Family also good, but again same problem.

I am not saying to follow Fr. Gruner blindly, but I do feel he has been very effective, and therefore has merited some recognition.

As for his suspension, that has been examined by more competant people than myself.

Here is his own defense:
fatima.org/news/newsviews/pr038.asp

and Christopher Ferrara here:
fatima.org/apostolate/defense/notsusvir.asp

It does appear he has tried to rectify the problem, and he and Rome appear to be crossing wires. Draw your own conclusions.

I will compliment Della, though. We may not agree, but she is acting out of concern for our Faith. God Bless You!👍
 
EnchantedEve said:
Hmmm, I am not sure disagreement with the Holy See necessarily equates to unorthodoxy
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Then I would be curious to know what you think DOES equate to unorthodoxy. Can you give me an example of an “unorthodox” something that agrees with the Holy See?
 
DavidFilmer said:
Then I would be curious to know what you think DOES equate to unorthodoxy. Can you give me an example of an “unorthodox” something that agrees with the Holy See?
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Unorthodoxy is that which is not agreement with the Catholic Faith, which the Holy See, how ever venerable it may be, is not synonymous with. Disagreeing with the Pope does not make you a heretic. When the famed Cardinal Billot, renowned theologian, was suspended for supporting Action Francaise in 1927, he was stripped of his cardinalate, the only modern prelate in history to have had this done, and left the Vatican. Did this profound disagreement with the Holy See make him unorthodox? Not at all, he was the very definition of orthodoxy. He simply had a different view of the situation that Pope Pius XI, though he was later vindicated when Pope Pius XII retracted the condemnation. This was a policy enactment of the Holy See, not a matter of Faith. There is a significant difference.
 
DavidFilmer said:
Can you give me an example of an “unorthodox” something that agrees with the Holy See?
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Gosh, that is a long list. Can you narrow that down? There are a lot of random unorthodox people who agree with the Holy See on various policies, anything specific?
 
puzzleannie said:
Gruner is a dissident priest cut from the same cloth as Call to Action, VOF, Catholics for Free Choice, and all other schismatic and dissident groups who deny the authoriy of the papacy and magesterium…
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I would add that there is also a mixture of Dan Brown and Jack Chick in there. The conspiracy theories that this group spins are as deserving of a movie as DaVinci Code.

Dissidence is not Catholic. It is opposed to what we believe about the authority of the Church and the role of the priest. Fr. Gruner, like any priest, can take his concerns to the Church. But in the end, he must accept the Church or deny the Church. An obedience only to the things that one agrees with is not obedience. It is coincidence.
 
Sister Lucia indicated that the consecration of Russia was correctly done and that the third secret had to do with JP II being shot in 1981. We must look to the Church as the pillar and foundation of the truth. The teachings of the Church is where the Truth of Jesus is, not the people, who are the instruments used. Pope John XII doesn’t make Catholic Christianity wrong and Ted Haggard doesn’t make Protestants any more wrong than they already were, in separating the Bible from Sacred Tradition and setting up the Bible as the sole rule of faith.
 
Earnest_Bunbury said:
Sister Lucia indicated that the consecration of Russia was correctly done and that the third secret had to do with JP II being shot in 1981. We must look to the Church as the pillar and foundation of the truth. The teachings of the Church is where the Truth of Jesus is, not the people, who are the instruments used. Pope John XII doesn’t make Catholic Christianity wrong and Ted Haggard doesn’t make Protestants any more wrong than they already were, in separating the Bible from Sacred Tradition and setting up the Bible as the sole rule of faith.
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Although this matter should probably be analyzed in another thread, the claim Sister Lucia made about the 1984 consecration of the world appears dubious, since we received it from a third party, and it contradicts 2 previous statements she made. So either Sister Lucia suddenly changer her mind for some reason, or she had mild senility.

With regard to conspiracy theories, their veracity is only questionable if they are untrue. To simply state something is a “conspiracy theory” and dismiss it without evidence or analysis is not an argument. If something is false it will not stand, however, if it is true, it will withstand scrutiny. If you wish to scrutinize please do so for our intellectual edification, otherwise please do not evaluate these views in such a manner. I will admit that the Fatima Crusade does seem to revel in these views sometimes, unfortunately, but this is not evidence for their falsehood.

Again, obedience is not a contrived notion performed at the service of blind causes. If Fr. Gruner is out of line in his assertions regarding Rome and his suspension, let him be evaluated on this offense. We do no man justice when we assume the Holy See is always automatically right in its actions. As my above example of Cardinal Billot shows, the Vatican did eventually vindicate his cause. Had it not been for the constant intervention and support for Action Francaise by Mother Agnes of Lisieux (St. Therese’s sister, St. Therese had supported Action Francaise before her death) this may never have occured. Were they therefore “disobedient” for campaigning for its rehabilitation? No. They followed their conscience for they felt the Holy Father had not fully appreciated the ramification of the condemnation in France. If we merely threw up our hands and said the cause is finished every time Rome disapproves of something our Faith would never grow. The Jesuits would still be suppressed, St. Joan would still be a heretic, Padre Pio would not be a saint, and Fatima and Divine Mercy would be a just local cults. Unless we work to promote all that is good in the Church, and assist in rectifying rough patches, we are simply being obstinate, not charitable.
 
From Sr. Lucia

ewtn.com/expert/answers/fatima1984.htm
Then this same Supreme Pontiff, John Paul II wrote to all the bishops of the world asking them to unite with him. He sent for the statute of Our Lady of Fátima – the one from the little Chapel to be taken to Rome and on March 25, 1984 - publicly - with the bishops who wanted to unite with His Holiness, made the Consecration as Our Lady requested. They then asked me if it was made as Our Lady requested, and I said, “YES.” Now it was made.
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pnewton said:
From Sr. Lucia

ewtn.com/expert/answers/fatima1984.htm
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I am aware of this letter.

Fatima Crusade has this take on the matter

fatima.org/essentials/opposed/cvrup3.asp

and here

fatimacrusader.com/cr91/cr91pg23.pdf

Aside from the problems I mentioned above there is another concern. If Russia is consecrated, where is the conversion? Russia seems relatively unchanged. Of course their adherence to “capitalism,” like the US, is tenuous at best, laughable in other senses, and to say they are essentially changed in any matter does not seem to bear out in practical observance.

Catholicism, whether of the “Novus Ordo” variety or the traditional Catholic, is actively discouraged, is not one of the recognized religions of state, and ownership by Catholics of their own property is generally suppressed. Religious and bishops are regularly expelled, diocesesan and missionary work blocked. All private media has been shut down in Russia. The state controls the press and television. Putin build anew an authoritarian regime in the shade of the old USSR, The Communist Party remains the second largest party and has never departed parliament. “United Russia,” Putin’s party, holds a line that does not differ significantly from the CP. Chechnya, Tambov Oblast, Chuvashia, and Tatarstan have all experienced upheavals. Russia has continued to fund worldwide terrorist groups (i.e. the PLO, Saddam Hussein, even to his downfall, the Red Chinese, the Red Koreans, the Red Vietnamese, the Kashmirans, the Kurds, Cuba, Venezuela, FARC, et al) and continues to have Naval and Air Force exercises indicating rivalry with the US, as does Red China. Russia has been, like the US, in continuous conflict since 1991.

Again, where is the conversion? If the consecration is done, is Our Lady a liar? Heaven forbid. What else can we make of this?
 
pnewton said:
Since statistics are not forthcoming from Russia, who knows. This survey suggests 60% Christian, but no one knows what it was. The repression of religion makes such things difficult.

religioscope.com/notes/2002/071_russia_census.htm

In any case, the OP has my answer.
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Since, as you say, religion is repressed in Russia, I still do not see how they are converting. Part of the conversion Our Lady spoke of was the fact that Russia spread its errors around the world. Would this not stop in a converted Russia? Again, 60% Christian does not unfortunately equat anymore to 60% Catholic. OSV Catholic Alamanac says its more like 2% or less.

By the way I must reveal my ignorance. What is OP again?
 
EnchantedEve said:
By the way I must reveal my ignorance. What is OP again?
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Original Poster or Original Post. It is the one that sore of sets the boundery for discussions and keeps the topic from wandering too far astray. I have found it is a good idea to re-read it from time to time in order to stay on track. In this case, they were looking for what others thought of this group lead by Fr. Gruner.
 
pnewton said:
Original Poster or Original Post. It is the one that sore of sets the boundery for discussions and keeps the topic from wandering too far astray. I have found it is a good idea to re-read it from time to time in order to stay on track. In this case, they were looking for what others thought of this group lead by Fr. Gruner.
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Thank you. More of life’s little mysteries revealed.😃
 
pnewton said:
I would add that there is also a mixture of Dan Brown and Jack Chick in there. The conspiracy theories that this group spins are as deserving of a movie as DaVinci Code.

Dissidence is not Catholic. It is opposed to what we believe about the authority of the Church and the role of the priest. Fr. Gruner, like any priest, can take his concerns to the Church. But in the end, he must accept the Church or deny the Church. An obedience only to the things that one agrees with is not obedience. It is coincidence.
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Not that I know what the group in question has to say, but how can any conspiracy theorist be in the same class of absurdity as Dan Brown?
 
EnchantedEve said:
Since, as you say, religion is repressed in Russia, I still do not see how they are converting. Part of the conversion Our Lady spoke of was the fact that Russia spread its errors around the world. Would this not stop in a converted Russia? Again, 60% Christian does not unfortunately equat anymore to 60% Catholic. OSV Catholic Alamanac says its more like 2% or less.
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Where is the conversion of Russia?!? The same place the Holy Spirit is in the Church, in the spiritual aspects of the manifestations of the physical, the teaching and the aspects of life ruled by those teachings. The teaching of the Church is not rendered null by the sinfulness of those teaching and the conversion of Russia isn’t lessened by the people not totally embracing Christianity. In that same vein, where is our conversion? Is Catholicism null and void because of the sinfulness of the members? NO. Is the Mass null because of the sinfulness of the priest? Again, No. Religion is repressed in the US by our Supreme Court, Congress, and President in the laws they make, support, and defend. Calling yourself Catholic and voting to fund abortion is denying the spirit of our religion and being dead to it in your soul. It is the spirit that gives life, lets remember. This doesn’t make all Catholics wrong, just the ones who manifest that wrongness.

Anyone not aware of the difference of the USSR as it is in its form today vs. the 1970’s or earlier is certainly not aware of much or is just too young to have studied history: 1956 Hungary 1968 Czechoslovakia 1981 Afghanistan or the support of insurgents in Vietnam, Cambodia, Central America, etc. Things are better now, not perfect, but definitely better thanks to God through Mary’s intercession.
 
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