The Fault lies with ???

[simplynoone]

Who mocked, tortured and killed Jesus?

According to the gospels, it was the Gentiles and this is consistent in that the Romans were already crucifying the Jews.

But why is it that I keep reading pious remarks as though the Christians are the ones to be forgiving the Jewish when they (the Gentiles) are the ones who not only killed Jesus, but MANY of the Jewish People in the name of covering their guilt and sins? It is odd. Seeing that the Jewish were not the ones to have benefited from this move, it is ridiculous to try and pin the betrayal on them… and even if you could, the Gentiles are clearly stated as being the ones to have done the work and history has shown time and again that this is a pattern that has not been provoked by the Jewish toward their own!!

Matthew 20:19 “And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him”

Luke 18: 32-33 “For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death”

Did the Jewish deliver themselves into the hands of the Gentiles during the Crusades? Did they lay each other down to be tortured for no reason for not accepting Christianity during the Inquisitions? Did they hand over their own people to Hitler and tell him to use Christianity to gain support in slaughtering their own children, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, grandparents… get the point?

I do not understand this smug attitude that is displayed so often by Christians toward the Jewish:

“Jesus said to forgive and so we forgive you for killing OUR saviour.”

Refrains from too bluntly stating what I think in regards to that attitude

YOU ARE THE ONES WHO KILLED HIM ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN GOSPELS!

Please, explain to me this hypocritical high horse that some of you have been riding on top of. I am listening and ready to learn why they should be forgiven by the Gentiles for the Gentiles slaughtering their (the Jews) own people in the name of Christianity… including Jesus, even though the NT clearly places the blame on the Gentiles.

 

[JonNC]

Who mocked, tortured and killed Jesus?

According to the gospels, it was the Gentiles and this is consistent in that the Romans were already crucifying the Jews.

But why is it that I keep reading pious remarks as though the Christians are the ones to be forgiving the Jewish when they (the Gentiles) are the ones who not only killed Jesus, but MANY of the Jewish People in the name of covering their guilt and sins? It is odd. Seeing that the Jewish were not the ones to have benefited from this move, it is ridiculous to try and pin the betrayal on them… and even if you could, the Gentiles are clearly stated as being the ones to have done the work and history has shown time and again that this is a pattern that has not been provoked by the Jewish toward their own!!

Matthew 20:19 “And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him”

Luke 18: 32-33 “For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death”

Did the Jewish deliver themselves into the hands of the Gentiles during the Crusades? Did they lay each other down to be tortured for no reason for not accepting Christianity during the Inquisitions? Did they hand over their own people to Hitler and tell him to use Christianity to gain support in slaughtering their own children, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, grandparents… get the point?

I do not understand this smug attitude that is displayed so often by Christians toward the Jewish:

“Jesus said to forgive and so we forgive you for killing OUR saviour.”

Refrains from too bluntly stating what I think in regards to that attitude

YOU ARE THE ONES WHO KILLED HIM ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN GOSPELS!

Please, explain to me this hypocritical high horse that some of you have been riding on top of. I am listening and ready to learn why they should be forgiven by the Gentiles for the Gentiles slaughtering their (the Jews) own people in the name of Christianity… including Jesus, even though the NT clearly places the blame on the Gentiles.

In the words of Johann Heermann:

Who was the guilty- Who brought this upon Thee?
Alas, my treason, Jesus, hath undone Thee.
'Twas I, Lord, Jesus, I it was denied Thee!
I crucified Thee

Jon

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I find it interesting to note the first papal statements on this:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:22-23

The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant * Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. 14 But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

Acts 3:13-15

30* The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins

Act 5:30-31

 

[ricko]

Your answers, as pointed out, are there in the bible.

Under the law, which is based on Judeo-Christian law, if you hire or ask someone to murder another, you are as guilty as if you had pulled the trigger yourself.

 

[simplynoone]

In the words of Johann Heermann:

Who was the guilty- Who brought this upon Thee?
Alas, my treason, Jesus, hath undone Thee.
'Twas I, Lord, Jesus, I it was denied Thee!
I crucified Thee

Jon

You weren’t even there. I do not believe that you actually crucified him unless you lived over 2,000 years ago. This breaks my heart. You do not place the blame on anyone but yourself… and I am telling you now, you should not live under that. God only ever commanded mankind to live under 7 very common sense laws (Gen.9). If we do something wrong, we are told to consider it and turn from it. This is found in Ezekiel 18:20-28. The Laws given to the Jewish because of their covenant with God were never supposed to be imposed on the Gentiles. This is all in the Tanakh. I do not see that you should suffer the guilt for something like this anymore than the Jewish should have to. This, I suppose, is what gets under my skin the most about what Paul imposed upon the world with the lies spewed out in his writings. Guilt, blame, shame, confusion and acceptance of a literal human sacrifice for simply being born and experiencing Life.:bighanky:

 

[grandfather]

You weren’t even there. I do not believe that you actually crucified him unless you lived over 2,000 years ago. This breaks my heart. You do not place the blame on anyone but yourself… and I am telling you now, you should not live under that. God only ever commanded mankind to live under 7 very common sense laws (Gen.9). If we do something wrong, we are told to consider it and turn from it. This is found in Ezekiel 18:20-28. The Laws given to the Jewish because of their covenant with God were never supposed to be imposed on the Gentiles. This is all in the Tanakh. I do not see that you should suffer the guilt for something like this anymore than the Jewish should have to. This, I suppose, is what gets under my skin the most about what Paul imposed upon the world with the lies spewed out in his writings. Guilt, blame, shame, confusion and acceptance of a literal human sacrifice for simply being born and experiencing Life.:bighanky:

Jesus died for your sins. He suffered and died for you. Your sins crucified Him. The Jews and Roman soldiers were your agents. He died for my sins. He was tortured to death and died in my place, and yours. He accepted this death, because He loves you. If I were the only person in the world who needed to be pardoned from a spiritual death sentence He would have gone to the cross.

Why did God choose to do this? Why did He choose this way to redeem us. It was all preordained. He could have redeemed us another way if He wanted to. He went through this so we could see how much our sins hurt Him who only loves us. What is the response to this realization. We are sorry for our offenses and we repent.

 

[simplynoone]

Jesus died for your sins. He suffered and died for you.

*IMMMMpossible! Listen, you surely have to know that I am not over 2,000 years old, right? Common sense should tell you this can not be truth. *

Your sins crucified Him.

*Sins, that being willful disobedience, are actions… not entities capable of crucifying a man, let alone existing without a host carrying them out. *

The Jews and Roman soldiers were your agents.

The Jewish have never used crucifixion as a method of punishment… that was the Romans. And again, they did not crucify because I told them to do it. I do not believe in killing others. And in the way that you are referring, I do not believe in literal human sacrifices so that I can cover my guilt in blood. I would accept eternal punishment (if I believed in it) over killing another person.

He died for my sins.

No, he died because he was Jewish and the Romans got some kind of sick pleasure out of humiliating them, torturing them, and hanging them up on crosses.

He was tortured to death and died in my place, and yours.

Nope, I will still die one day and so will you and everyone else who is living on this planet. That is Nature and not punishment.

He accepted this death, because He loves you.

No he did not. He was praying to get out of it. Not to mention, he did not know me and therefore could not have possibly loved me. This is no fault of his, but rather time.

If I were the only person in the world who needed to be pardoned from a spiritual death sentence He would have gone to the cross.

*Are you admitting that you would sacrifice him to cover your guilt? If you two were the only ones alive, you’d be the one to have to carry it out. Think about this statement you made (surely you made it in ignorance). *

Why did God choose to do this? Why did He choose this way to redeem us.

God never said that he would redeem us this way. God is not the one who killed Jesus. You are blaming it on everyone else but the ones who actually did it.

It was all preordained.

Where is your proof for this?

He could have redeemed us another way if He wanted to.

Exactly… if we, man, can forgive one another without requiring blood sacrifices to be made to us, why do you say God won’t? Logic… there is a reason we were made with the ability to use it.

He went through this so we could see how much our sins hurt Him who only loves us. What is the response to this realization. We are sorry for our offenses and we repent.

By reveling in a barbaric act committed 2,000 years ago? Think… how would you like it if one of your ancestors were paraded around before you all the time in the same manner that Christians parade a Jewish man on a cross? How are you all sorry when it is what you glory in even 2,000 years after the fact?

 

[JonNC]

=simplynoone;5170462]You weren’t even there.

My sins were, right there on the cross borne by Christ.

This breaks my heart.

Don’t concern yourself with it. I’m fine.

I do not see that you should suffer the guilt for something like this anymore than the Jewish should have to. This, I suppose, is what gets under my skin the most about what Paul imposed upon the world with the lies spewed out in his writings. Guilt, blame, shame, confusion and acceptance of a literal human sacrifice for simply being born and experiencing Life.

You seem more troubled about this than me. You see, while what that Holy Week hymn says is indeed true, but it is followed by the resurrection. I’m forgiven, reborn in Baptism, sanctifiied by His grace which I receive in word and sacrament.

But I certainly don’t blame the Jews or the Romans.

Jon

 

[Godfollower]

Who mocked, tortured and killed Jesus?

According to the gospels, it was the Gentiles and this is consistent in that the Romans were already crucifying the Jews.

But why is it that I keep reading pious remarks as though the Christians are the ones to be forgiving the Jewish when they (the Gentiles) are the ones who not only killed Jesus, but MANY of the Jewish People in the name of covering their guilt and sins? It is odd. Seeing that the Jewish were not the ones to have benefited from this move, it is ridiculous to try and pin the betrayal on them… and even if you could, the Gentiles are clearly stated as being the ones to have done the work and history has shown time and again that this is a pattern that has not been provoked by the Jewish toward their own!!

Matthew 20:19 “And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him”

Luke 18: 32-33 “For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death”

Did the Jewish deliver themselves into the hands of the Gentiles during the Crusades? Did they lay each other down to be tortured for no reason for not accepting Christianity during the Inquisitions? Did they hand over their own people to Hitler and tell him to use Christianity to gain support in slaughtering their own children, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, grandparents… get the point?

I do not understand this smug attitude that is displayed so often by Christians toward the Jewish:

“Jesus said to forgive and so we forgive you for killing OUR saviour.”

Refrains from too bluntly stating what I think in regards to that attitude

YOU ARE THE ONES WHO KILLED HIM ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN GOSPELS!

Please, explain to me this hypocritical high horse that some of you have been riding on top of. I am listening and ready to learn why they should be forgiven by the Gentiles for the Gentiles slaughtering their (the Jews) own people in the name of Christianity… including Jesus, even though the NT clearly places the blame on the Gentiles.

Some people find it easier to blame “others” than to handle the truth. The fact is, the Jewish people are not to blame for Jesus’ death, any more than anyone else is to blame. Catholic theology is quite clear that there is no “blood guilt” that would, say, make modern-day Jews somehow liable for what happened at Calvary 2,000 years ago. But there are some who – for whatever reason – persist in blaming “the Jews” for the Crucifixion. Indeed, there was even a warning thread posted by a moderator here at CAF about how people need to stop making such accusations against Jewish people, and some members actually responded to the thread saying “but it IS their fault!” They were banned from the forums, and their posts were removed, because that is emphatically NOT Catholic teaching.

There will always be some people who insist on blaming “others” for whatever they can. They are wrong to do so, and the Church does what it can to educate them. But there will always be more. Humans are a fallen race, and there will always be sinners until the end of time. Please don’t think, just because some Catholics make such accusations, that we all believe it. We don’t.

 

[simplynoone]

My sins were, right there on the cross borne by Christ.

Don’t concern yourself with it. I’m fine.

You seem more troubled about this than me.

*I am more troubled by the view that has led people astray from the Truth. We disagree certainly in our views of God and the death of Jesus, but honestly I can not deny that you seem to have a genuinely kind heart. I only hope that you will consider what I say as I HAVE sincerely considered the christian view (grew up in it).

You see, while what that Holy Week hymn says is indeed true, but it is followed by the resurrection. I’m forgiven, reborn in Baptism, sanctifiied by His grace which I receive in word and sacrament.

But I certainly don’t blame the Jews or the Romans.

Jon

*As for your last statement, yes… I can see that you do not.

The rest of what you say, I take a more a naturalist view. Man being raised from the dead physically speaking (in the way that is taught in Christianity) is not a possibility; rather, being resurrected means man is brought to the Truth of God’s Word (the Tanakh). This is the resurrection spoken of all throughout the Tanakh. Man breaks laws and God does not. The Laws of Nature are part of God’s Law.

You seem like a very kind person. God bless you with His Truth.*

 

[simplynoone]

Some people find it easier to blame “others” than to handle the truth. The fact is, the Jewish people are not to blame for Jesus’ death, any more than anyone else is to blame. Catholic theology is quite clear that there is no “blood guilt” that would, say, make modern-day Jews somehow liable for what happened at Calvary 2,000 years ago. But there are some who – for whatever reason – persist in blaming “the Jews” for the Crucifixion. Indeed, there was even a warning thread posted by a moderator here at CAF about how people need to stop making such accusations against Jewish people, and some members actually responded to the thread saying “but it IS their fault!” They were banned from the forums, and their posts were removed, because that is emphatically NOT Catholic teaching.

There will always be some people who insist on blaming “others” for whatever they can. They are wrong to do so, and the Church does what it can to educate them. But there will always be more. Humans are a fallen race, and there will always be sinners until the end of time. Please don’t think, just because some Catholics make such accusations, that we all believe it. We don’t.

*Thank you for sharing this with me. I am glad to hear this. I had come across a few posts that were disturbing… where it was very clearly implied that the Jews should be seeking forgiveness for the death of one of their own when crucifixion was not even a method used by them. It is hard enough to see it paraded around (Jesus, a religious Jew on a cross, that is), that to witness others implying that it is the Jews fault this happened when human sacrifices are not even condoned in Judaism, well it was too important to me to not pass up the opportunity to discuss it. It is sad to see anyone having their loved ones killed so brutally, but it is MORE than disturbing to see the blame put on the already “bruised” family members.

I am thankful that a couple of you could see the obvious distress in my post to notice why it is I posted it. *

 

[Cluny]

**The rest of what you say, I take a more a naturalist view. Man being raised from the dead physically speaking (in the way that is taught in Christianity) is not a possibility; rather, being resurrected means man is brought to the Truth of God’s Word (the Tanakh). **

This does not change the fact that Jesus was raised from the dead in a resurrected glorfied human body.

What you’re saying is that you don’t believe in the Resurrection.

 

[simplynoone]

This does not change the fact that Jesus was raised from the dead in a resurrected glorfied human body.

*I can not help but to remember reading that Thomas was encouraged to see and touch the wounds and also to remember that Jesus ate with the disciples. This does not sound like a GLORIFIED human body to me. *

What you’re saying is that you don’t believe in the Resurrection.

VERY GOOD! That is exactly what I am saying… the Christian view of resurrection defies the natural Laws. God’s creation depends upon His Laws staying intact and if they are broken, His creation falls apart. Malachi 3:6 is my security!!

 

[Wildgraywolf]

VERY GOOD! That is exactly what I am saying… the Christian view of resurrection defies the natural Laws. God’s creation depends upon His Laws staying intact and if they are broken, His creation falls apart. Malachi 3:6 is my security!!

Do natural laws have a supernatural origin?

 

[simplynoone]

Do natural laws have a supernatural origin?

God is supernatural, sure. Since the Natural Laws came from Him, then yes, the Natural Laws have a supernatural original.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

God is supernatural, sure. Since the Natural Laws came from Him, then yes, the Natural Laws have a supernatural original.

So even natural laws posses a supernatural quality to them because they were created by a supernatural being? All of Creation is the result of a supernatural act by a supernatural being, so when does the supernatural end and the natural begin?

 

[simplynoone]

So even natural laws posses a supernatural quality to them because they were created by a supernatural being? All of Creation is the result of a supernatural act by a supernatural being, so when does the supernatural end and the natural begin?

*Do you not understand Nature? Wait! Don’t answer. We were put in an enviroment where Laws were given… called, the Laws of Nature. Mostly it is common knowledge by now what is and is not natural. Virgin Birth? Not natural. Man and Woman having intimate relations and conceiving Life within her womb? Natural.

See… it is not that hard.*

 

[simplynoone]

*Oh! Dead man coming raising from the dead? Not natural!

I did want to include that things are being done these days that are not natural by the hands of man. How would one decipher if something was done by man or by God? Well, the answer is this: God does not break laws and Man does. Thus, the Laws of God are my security. Since I was not there to witness this event, all I have to go on is man’s word and the Truth. The Truth is, God works within the Laws. Man does not. Even you acknowledge the latter part… do you think God is like a man? Oy! Never mind… again, no need to answer it.*

 

[JonNC]

=simplynoone;5174672
This is the resurrection spoken of all throughout the Tanakh. Man breaks laws and God does not. The Laws of Nature are part of God’s Law.

Did God break the natural laws when Moses parted the Red Sea? Or when Elijah was taken into heaven? Or Daniel? Or Noah? Or Jonah?

You seem like a very kind person. God bless you with His Truth.

Thank you. I think I have His truth, although my Catholic brothers and sisters would say not the fullness of truth since I’m Lutheran.

Jon

 

[simplynoone]

Did God break the natural laws when Moses parted the Red Sea? Or when Elijah was taken into heaven? Or Daniel? Or Noah? Or Jonah?

No. No. No. No. No.

Thank you. I think I have His truth, although my Catholic brothers and sisters would say not the fullness of truth since I’m Lutheran.

Jon

What are the differences? Anything major? My best friend’s husband is Lutheran and he likes to give his catholic friend’s a hard time. Neither she or myself know much about either (I have only learned the Catholic perspective from interactions with them on here). I did attend a service with them once, but admittedly, he told us just go on home since we could not keep quiet (we live across the country from each other, so when we get together, we can’t sit still or quiet for too long).