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Wildgraywolf
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Just out of sheer, unbridled curiosity, please explain the natural laws God used that caused the events JonNC mentioned.No. No. No. No. No.
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=simplynoone;5178813]No. No. No. No. No.
What kind of response was that? Or, are you saying these things didnāt happen, either?Originally, the Doctrine of Justification, but there are others. Purgatory, transubstantiation, power and primacy of the pope, and some others.What are the differences? Anything major? My best friendās husband is Lutheran and he likes to give his catholic friendās a hard time. Neither she or myself know much about either (I have only learned the Catholic perspective from interactions with them on here). I did attend a service with them once, but admittedly, he told us just go on home since we could not keep quiet (we live across the country from each other, so when we get together, we canāt sit still or quiet for too long).
Jon
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simplynoone
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*The Red Sea? There are MANY very reasonable theories for their having gone over in such a way that the Laws of Nature were not broken. One theory that seemed MOST amazing to me had to do with a massive volcano eruption that WAS occurring at the estimating time to their exit from Egypt. It explained the burning bush (though, I see this as allegorical as well) and it scientifically accounted for all the āplagues.ā As for the Red Sea, they would have crossed over a shelf break at a narrow spotā¦ they said that upon crossing, the volcano could have given its devistating blast which would have caused massive earthquakes, thus being fatal to those crossing over at that moment. Letās not forget that Moses was brought up within the royal house! The Egyptians were VERY knowledgeable and Moses was no exception to this. I found this theory the most fascinating and unlike most, I find it even more amazing that it could have happened this way!! God working within His Laws is TRULY amazing to me!! Much more powerful than His stooping to manās level by breaking them.
Before you say the above is unlikelyā¦ think about what you would be saying. Is it more reasonable to say that God would work within the Natural Laws or outside of? To say it is unlikely is to really throw your own versions out the window altogether.
Elijah being taken into heaven? I know better than to give my opinion on this here. Last time I did it caused many to be angry and I am not wanting to go through that again.
I am not sure what is being asked of me about Daniel.
Noah? All one has to do is read the language to see that it is an allegory. Pay close attention to the wording.
And Jonah? Definitely allegorical language. This āfish taleā was around long before it was written into the Tanakhā¦ the difference is, this time it was Divinely inspired in such a way as to contain great Wisdom in the story!
If you knew that these things were allegories and/or natural events, would you trust God less? See, I trust Him more knowing that He is that brilliant that He can work within the Laws that He gave. Else, why does He demand our observance of them? Why even have Laws?*
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simplynoone
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No, I am just saying that God does not break the Laws. To say He would have to break them to cause miracles is more limiting to His power than to say that He would not break them and still cause miraculous events. The latter is the truly fascinating line of thinking and it gives me reason to trust His Word and Him! If He really broke them to do these things, then I will not lieā¦ I could not trust Himā¦ He would be no better than man. This is God that we are discussing hereā¦ not man!!
*Ahā¦ do you or donāt you believe in transubstantiation? I thought the Catholics did and it seemed from one of your threads that you did as well. Or is there a difference? *
Jon
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Wildgraywolf
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Which volcano?
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simplynoone
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Yeeks! Thera maybe? Somewhere located around Greece. It would have been around the 3,600 BC time frame. I just thought this theory sounded fascinating considering the events playing out at the same time in Egypt and some evidence that the effects of the blast reached all the way to Egypt. Of course, there is a less fantastical account as well of the Exodus. Either/or (or even that it would be allegorical) to me will work as it does not affect my trust in God at all. Would it yours?
I am not offended by transub. It is a reasonable human explanation for the miracle and mystery of Christās real presence in the Eucharist. It is, though, a human description, and Christ did not leave us any explanation other than, āThis is my body.ā Therefore, my greatest concern is binding Christians to believe it (transub).
As Melanchton says in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, āin the Lordās Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament.ā That. to me, is sufficient in describing the mystery.
A coincidence? How lucky for God, Moses, and the Israelites. Unless, of course, you are saying that God caused the eruption at that time, which I think violates the limits you place on God regarding breaking natural law.
Jon
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simplynoone
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Thank you for sharing this with me. Since I was asking out of sincere curiosity, I will keep my view on it here in this thread to myself. Just know I have one.
*How lucky for God, Moses, and the Israelites? Moses was gone for YEARSā¦ thus, there is no reason that God had to interfere with Nature in order for Moses to be made aware of what was happening when he saw the burning bush. He became enlightened as to how he could help to set free his people. And can guess who it was that enlightened Moses? ahem
That is, of course, if this theory is what happened. Certainly it would be an amazing show of Godās ability to NOT be confined by the Laws and yet set His Chosen free from oppression. Being confined means that He would break the Laws just as man breaks them. It is puzzling to me that so few can understand what makes this TRULY a show of Godās greatness! *Nickles to doughnuts it isnāt the same as mine.=simplynoone;5181417]Thank you for sharing this with me. Since I was asking out of sincere curiosity, I will keep my view on it here in this thread to myself. Just know I have one.
*How lucky for God, Moses, and the Israelites? Moses was gone for YEARSā¦ thus, there is no reason that God had to interfere with Nature in order for Moses to be made aware of what was happening when he saw the burning bush. He became enlightened as to how he could help to set free his people. And can guess who it was that enlightened Moses? ahem
That is, of course, if this theory is what happened. Certainly it would be an amazing show of Godās ability to NOT be confined by the Laws and yet set His Chosen free from oppression. Being confined means that He would break the Laws just as man breaks them. It is puzzling to me that so few can understand what makes this TRULY a show of Godās greatness! *A burning bush not consumed.
Of course, God can do things any way He wishes.
Jon
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simplynoone
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:yup: Correct!Nickles to doughnuts it isnāt the same as mine.
A burning bush not consumed.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
He promises not to change so that why? the sons of Jacob are not consumed. The next verse contains the IMPORTANT information to understanding the allegory of the burning bushā¦ it was part of the enlightenment that Moses had.
āEven from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them.** Return unto me, and I will return unto you**, saith the LORD of hosts.ā
An ordinance is a Law that is set forthā¦ a decree.
The Egyptians were keeping the Hebrews as slaves by way of illusion. The Hebrews were ALWAYS freeā¦ but the Egyptians were masters of illusion and all it takes for an illusion to become hocus pocus reality is for the viewer to believe it IS reality. Thus, the Hebrews did not believe Moses when he killed the āEgyptianā (before he fled into the wilderness). Their delusion under the Egyptians was too strong.
So, here is Mosesā¦ out in the wilderness heavily burdened for these people that he loved who were suffering because of their own false perceptions. He did not know what TO do to get them to OPEN THEIR EYES TO THE TRUTH.
Then, Moses, who is well learned, sees the effects of the volcano (or any other of the explanations will fit into the whole of this allegorical story that IS based on truth) and he is enlightened as to how to go about freeing these People.
THE LAWS OF GOD and because of the superstitions that were held to by the Hebrews, Moses could use natural occurances to build up the confidence of the People and lead them away from oppression.
Now, here we are MANY MANY MANY stories and centuries laterā¦ we have a better understanding of the world around usā¦ yet, there are still so many who have fallen under the oppression of superstitions and illusions. Some of us have seen the same burning bushā¦ the Laws of God that are never consumedā¦ this includes the Laws of Nature.
Of course, the people of the present perceive themselves to be freeā¦ they think this because an illusion (the power of suggestion) has been given:
Colossians 2:14; 20 "***Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ***that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,"
What you have failed to realize is that the wool cannot be pulled over your eyes as Moses was able to do for the children of Israelā¦ the knowledge that Moses had is now too common place and thus, the rescue can only come by your own self to realize that you have been deceived. Moses pulling the wool over the childrenās eyes was for their own goodā¦ and when he got them out of the oppression, he enlightened their eyes to the Laws of God (including the Law of Nature) so that they would not be consumed ever again (at least not wholly):
Thus, the burning bush is this: the knowledge of the ordinances that keep the sons of Jacob from being consumed.
The miracle IS happening even now for many peopleā¦ but most are looking for the illusion that Moses used to free the people. That will not happen. It canāt. All that can happen is for people to open their eyes and look at what it is you have actually been reading (notice the stark contrast between Malachi 3:7 and what Paul said in Colossians)ā¦ who have you been trusting?
So, there you go for the explanation that is supported by the foundation that most are blinded to because of the illusions (power of suggestions) that have been given by Paul and believed by so many.
Some of us though have been enlightened by the burning bush that is not consumed by the fire.
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