The Filoque: Why is it important?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mschrank
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
emphasis mine]
Well, this is interesting. Because I agree with ERose’s quote; It makes sense to me.

I’ve often wondered, what’s the point of the Holy Spirit? Why does God, who is all powerful, need a helper?

And the filioque answers those questions.

The knowledge of God (aka, The Word) is so perfect, it must be God (aka Jesus).

The love between the Father and the Son is so perfect, it must be God (aka The Holy Spirit).

Denying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from Father and Son leaves me with a very important question; Why does an all powerful God need a helper in the Holy Spirit?
God is a communion of persons. He is not a monad and completely wraped up in Himself like the muslim God.

I think the Eastern Orthodox theologian Vladimir Lossky discusses this matter.

Further, I think you are trying to rationalize it far too much. Western Christianity tends to think it can define everything. But the fact is that we can’t understand God in His essence. Why is God three persons? You will go insane trying to figure it out because God is not created. He is far beyond our understanding.

You asking what the purpose of the Holy Spirit is distorts the Trinity. It seems that you imply that the Holy Spirit proceeds by way of Gods will, when in fact it is the nature of God to be Trinity.

The Holy Spirit is not just a helper of God, He is God. You can’t ask the question why God needs a helper in the Holy Spirit. It is a moot point because the Holy Spirit is not simply a helper. The Holy Spirit is God by nature. It is the nature of God to be Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
Hi Jimmy,

Thank you for your post. I’m sorry, I don’t think you’re helping the thread. I’ll be specific. Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son or not? We need an answer to this question.
 
The arguement of the filioque because the Son is/has all the Father is/has: what do you make of the last clause then of the Spirit?
It just means that the Spirit is of the Son,as well as of the Father.

St. Didymus:

“As we have understood discussions ….about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which He is of His own nature. …So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which He subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given Him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given Him by the Son” (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 380]).

St. Athanasius:

“Insofar as we understand the special relationship of the Son to the Father, we also understand that the Spirit has this same relationship to the Son. And since the Son says, ‘everything that the Father has is mine (John 16:15),’ we will discover all these things also in the Spirit through the Son. And just as the Son was announced by the Father, Who said, ‘This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased (Matthew 3:17),’ so also is the Spirit of the Son; for, as the Apostle says, ‘He has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’ (Galatians 4:6).” (Athanasius, Letters to Serapion, III, 1, 33, PG 26, 625 B).

St. Gregory of Nyssa:

“The Holy Spirit is said to be of the Father and it is [further] attested that He is of the Son. St Paul says: ‘Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him’ (Romans 8:9). So the Spirit Who is of God (the Father) is also the Spirit of Christ. However, the Son Who is of God (the Father) is not said to be of the Spirit: the consecutive order of the relationship cannot be reversed.” (Fragment in Orationem Dominicam, quoted by St John Damascene, PG 46. 1109 BC).
 
Pope St. Leo III considered it a bad translation, forbade its use at Aachen in 809, and put the original Creed on the doors of St. Peter in Greek and Latin with the inscription HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith)(VITA LEONIS, LIBER PONTIFICALIS (Ed.Duchene, TII, p.26) Was he being too subtle?

The ECF use ekporeusomai for the one, proinai for the other sense.

If it’s not a material difference, why twist Scripture to support it?-

There is indeed a material difference between those two words. They express two different but equally valid truths about the Trinity.

St. Epiphanius:
“No one knows the Spirit, besides the Father, except the Son, from Whom He proceeds (proienai) and of Whom He receives.” (Panarion, xi, in P.G., XLIII, 35):

orthodox.clara.net/belief.htm
The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son cannot be found in Sacred Scripture. It is a man-made addition.

americancatholicpress.org/Father_%20Gilligan_Filioque_clause_page1.html

< Scripture explicitly says that Christ received the Spirit from the Father and gave it to his Church:

This is the Jesus God has raised up, we are his witnesses. Exalted at God’s right hand, he first received the promised Holy Spirit from the Father, then poured this Spirit out on us. This is what you now see and hear. (Acts 2:32-33)

The Spirit comes from God through Jesus Christ:

He saved us through the baptism of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he lavished on us through Jesus Christ our Savior. (Titus 3:5-6) >

If it’s all so unimportant

Follow Pope St. Leo III

AND DROP IT!

< In the ninth century, Pope Leo III agreed with the filioque phrase theologically but was opposed to adopting it in Rome, within the Creed, in part because of his loyalty to the received tradition. (He also knew that the Greeks resented the new Roman Empire in the West and Charlemagne in particular; the Pope wanted to preserve Church unity.) In fact, Leo III had the traditional text of the creed, without the filioque, displayed publicly. He had the original text engraved on two silver tablets, at the tomb of St. Peter. In any case, during the time of Pope Leo’s leadership, 795- 816, there was no creed at all in the Roman Mass. >

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.filioque.txt

< In a council held in Aachen in 809, the Frankish bishops
upheld the FILIOQUE. Pope Leo III (795-816) intervened, and forbade any interpolations or alterations in the Nicene Creed. He ordered the Creed, without the FILIOQUE, to be engraved in Latin and Greek on two silver plates on the wall of St. Peter’s in Rome. By doing so, he avoided a direct confrontation with the East. However, the FILIOQUE continued to gain ground in the West.

Two issues were involved: (1) Does the Holy Ghost in fact proceed
from the Son as well as from the Father? (2) Once a Creed has been adopted by the authority of the Church assembled in a world-wide council of bishops, is it lawful to amend the text of that Creed by any lesser authority than a similar council? Leo saw that it is possible to answer “Yes” to the first question and “No” to the second question without contradiction. However, he seemed to be almost the only one who saw this. Theologians in the West spent most of their time defending an affirmative answer to the first question, and their counterparts in the East were defending a negative answer to the second question. >
 
Hi Jimmy,

Thank you for your post. I’m sorry, I don’t think you’re helping the thread. I’ll be specific. Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son or not? We need an answer to this question.
You’ve gotten one.

No.
 
God is a communion of persons. He is not a monad and completely wraped up in Himself like the muslim God.

Further, I think you are trying to rationalize it far too much. Western Christianity tends to think it can define everything. But the fact is that we can’t understand God in His essence. Why is God three persons? You will go insane trying to figure it out because God is not created. He is far beyond our understanding.

You asking what the purpose of the Holy Spirit is distorts the Trinity. It seems that you imply that the Holy Spirit proceeds by way of Gods will, when in fact it is the nature of God to be Trinity.
Your first paragraph needs to be clarified please.

I agree with you that there are certain things we can never know about God because of our limitations of imagining Perfection, but God gave us reason and He gave us revelations about Him and there are certain things that we can at least have some understanding of Him and this is one of them.

God is Trinity because God is Love. So you are correct in saying that it is God’s nature to be Trinity.
 
emphasis mine]
Well, this is interesting. Because I agree with ERose’s quote; It makes sense to me.

I’ve often wondered, what’s the point of the Holy Spirit? Why does God, who is all powerful, need a helper?
You have JUST NOW demonstrated one of the biggest problems with the Latin way of unsderstanding the Holy Trinity.

SUBORDINATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

The very fact that you could even conceive of the Holy Ghost as a helper indicates that your theology has failed you. You have crossed the tipping point and now cannot think of the Holy Spirit as anything but a helper.

You need a reason, so you state here…

What you really need is a new way of thinking.
 
Your first paragraph needs to be clarified please.

I agree with you that there are certain things we can never know about God because of our limitations of imagining Perfection, but God gave us reason and He gave us revelations about Him and there are certain things that we can at least have some understanding of Him and this is one of them.

God is Trinity because God is Love. So you are correct in saying that it is God’s nature to be Trinity.
Our reason can not reveal to us Gods essence. We can not simply think and come up with knowledge of God. Certain things have been revealed to us but we can’t understand them in what they truely mean. We know that the Son is begotten of the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father but what does that mean? It is all a mystery to us. Here is what St. Gregory Nazianzen says of the issue.

“You ask,” he says, "what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do you tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will then explain to you the physiology

of the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God."

I am not the right person to clarify the first paragraph(if there is a right person). God is a communion of persons. That is who He is. He is not just the Father. He is three in one, not just one in the sense muslims say.
 
Hi Jimmy,

Thank you for your post. I’m sorry, I don’t think you’re helping the thread. I’ll be specific. Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son or not? We need an answer to this question.
I gave you an answer. You said the Holy Spirit has no purpose if He does not proceed from the Son. I said that was a false statement. Procession from the Son does not give the Holy Spirit purpose.
 
Our reason can not reveal to us Gods essence. We can not simply think and come up with knowledge of God. Certain things have been revealed to us but we can’t understand them in what they truely mean. We know that the Son is begotten of the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father but what does that mean? It is all a mystery to us. Here is what St. Gregory Nazianzen says of the issue.

“You ask,” he says, "what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do you tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will then explain to you the physiology

of the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God."

I am not the right person to clarify the first paragraph(if there is a right person). God is a communion of persons. That is who He is. He is not just the Father. He is three in one, not just one in the sense muslims say.
Jimmy,

Concerning the 1st paragraph I think that you are the one that wrote it and since you wrote it you should be able to be the one to clarify it.

Concerning our ability to know God, you are correct there is a point were you hit a wall that your intellect cannot pierce. But there is quite a bit of room before he hit that wall. God gave mankind a inate desire to seek that which is greater than himself. We all have it even though we may not direct it properly. There is a reason for that. God wants us to know Him. That is one reason why Christ came. Remember he spent alot of time on earth teaching the Apostles and his disciples about Himself and His Father. Why? Was it necessary for our redemption? Could He have not skipped the instruction and went straight to the Passion? I don’t know, but I do know he didn’t.

So God wants us to know Him. So that means that He has revealed enough knowledge about Himself for us to get the know Him by using the reason he gave us.

If this isn’t true then alot of Theologians over the centuries have wasted alot of time and energy looking towards Heaven.
 
I’ll be specific. Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son or not? We need an answer to this question.
Of course. Even the Orthodox believe that.
It doesn’t preclude perichoresis, hence procession THROUGH the Son.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2820531&postcount=86

And just in case you think it’s the word “through” as opposed to “from” that presents the obstacle:
The problem isn’t in the ek, it’s in the eporeuomai.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2829833&postcount=124

See. The Orthodox do admit to a relationship of procession between the Son and the Spirit; of course not in the sense of ekporeuomai, but then neither do Catholics.

Isn’t it a bit disingenuous of the Orthodox to deny procession of the Spirit from or through the Son?
 
… The very fact that you could even conceive of the Holy Ghost as a helper indicates that your theology has failed you…
That’s not fair. Read John 14:16-17.
What you really need is a new way of thinking.
Actually, I think that’s what got us into trouble in the first place.
I gave you an answer. You said the Holy Spirit has no purpose if He does not proceed from the Son. I said that was a false statement. Procession from the Son does not give the Holy Spirit purpose.
emphasis mine]
That’s not what I meant.

The question I asked was why does an all powerful God need a helper in the Holy Spirit (see John 14:16-17).

But, I’m repeating myself now. I have nothing new to add. Thanks for the replies and interesting thoughts. Bye bye for now - I’ll see you around in other threads.
 
Of course. Even the Orthodox believe that.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2820531&postcount=86

And just in case you think it’s the word “through” as opposed to “from” that presents the obstacle:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2829833&postcount=124

See. The Orthodox do admit to a relationship of procession between the Son and the Spirit; of course not in the sense of ekporeuomai, but then neither do Catholics.

Isn’t it a bit disingenuous of the Orthodox to deny procession of the Spirit from or through the Son?
No. He doesn’t process from the Son.

No. We don’t deny He processes through the Son.
 
That’s not fair. Read John 14:16-17.

Actually, I think that’s what got us into trouble in the first place.

emphasis mine]
That’s not what I meant.

The question I asked was why does an all powerful God need a helper in the Holy Spirit (see John 14:16-17).

But, I’m repeating myself now. I have nothing new to add. Thanks for the replies and interesting thoughts. Bye bye for now - I’ll see you around in other threads.
Problem: your cited verse says ANOTHER Helper (Paraclete). Why, then, you might ask does He need two Helpers?

Yes, new and improved thinking is what started this whole mess.
 
Jimmy,

Concerning the 1st paragraph I think that you are the one that wrote it and since you wrote it you should be able to be the one to clarify it.

Concerning our ability to know God, you are correct there is a point were you hit a wall that your intellect cannot pierce. But there is quite a bit of room before he hit that wall. God gave mankind a inate desire to seek that which is greater than himself. We all have it even though we may not direct it properly. There is a reason for that. God wants us to know Him. That is one reason why Christ came. Remember he spent alot of time on earth teaching the Apostles and his disciples about Himself and His Father. Why? Was it necessary for our redemption? Could He have not skipped the instruction and went straight to the Passion? I don’t know, but I do know he didn’t.

So God wants us to know Him. So that means that He has revealed enough knowledge about Himself for us to get the know Him by using the reason he gave us.

If this isn’t true then alot of Theologians over the centuries have wasted alot of time and energy looking towards Heaven.
I don’t claim to be able to explain Gods essence and neither does any other eastern Christian. Not even the great saints of the Church, including St. Gregory Nazianzen as quoted, believed they could explain Gods essence.

Further, I don’t even know what you are unsure about in that first paragraph. Is it the fact that God is a communion of persons? Or is it that God is not a monad like muslims believe? Both these are shown by the doctrine of the Trinity. All three are equal in all aspects. None are subordinate to the others. They all freely love each other. The Father begets the Son and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Father gives all that He is. And there is a communion between the three persons. So the Spirit can be said to be the Spirit of the Son and the Spirit of the Father. But what this communion is no one can speak of because no one knows of it.

Our religion is not a religion of the reason. Yes, we use our reasoning to know God(as humans it would be impossible for us to not use our reason). But it is only in matters that have been revealed through revelation. You can not make logical deductions and come up with the nature of God. Eastern Christianity, whether it be of the Syrian or the Byzantine type, does not like to define God. Instead they use paradox explain aspects of the faith. They make points at opposite points around the point they are trying to explain and they use those two points on the circumference to explain the center point. They also use symbolism to explain it. What this means is that a large part of eastern Christian theology is apophatic in a sense.

Yes, Christ taught on earth and He taught us what was necessary for salvation but He did not explain to us the innner workings of the Trinity. He has given us knowledge that God is Trinity and that we are to be brought into relationship with the Trinity(through Grace) but He has not revealed what the relationship between the persons of the Trinity is. It is something that is infinitely beyond us.
 
emphasis mine]
That’s not what I meant.

The question I asked was why does an all powerful God need a helper in the Holy Spirit (see John 14:16-17).

But, I’m repeating myself now. I have nothing new to add. Thanks for the replies and interesting thoughts. Bye bye for now - I’ll see you around in other threads.
It is not a matter of need, it is simply a matter of nature. This is part of what I was getting at before. The Spirit might be called a helper in some passages of the scriptures but that is not because He exists to help God. He is God. Without realizing it you are approaching the Trinity from a view of subordination.

By the way, I am not arguing against the filioque. I don’t necessarily reject the filioque, only this idea of necessity in the Trinity. And I definately reject a subordinate Trinitarian theology.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top