The Final Judgement and another punishment?

[incantator]

My question arose form the following excerpt from St. Faustina’s Diary:

Once I was summoned to the judgment [seat] of God. I stood alone before the Lord. Jesus appeared such as we know Him during His Passion. After a moment, His wounds disappeared except for five, those in His hands, His feet and His side. Suddenly I saw the complete condition of my soul as God sees it. I could clearly see all that is displeasing to God. I did not know that even the smallest transgressions will have to be accounted for. What a moment! Who can describe it? To stand before the Thrice-Holy God! Jesus asked me, Who are you? I answered, “I am Your servant, Lord.” You are guilty of one day of fire in purgatory.

(Faustina Kowalska, Saint Maria. Diary: Divine Mercy in My Soul (Illustrated) (Kindle Locations 758-763). Kindle Edition.)

I want to understand what is actually going to happen at the final judgement. Our sins are forgiven, so we went to heaven but will we be judged and then be punished again for those forgiven sins? That’s too sad, and I don’t think it is a true forgiveness that the God endows us.

I’d very appreciate correct understanding on this matter!

 

[Bon_Croix]

I think what is being revealed in her writings is this:

She was guilty of some small sin. Maybe some small act of selfishness, lets say. God was revealing to her that she had sinned so to make it known to her (he was shining light into the darkness of her soul)–remember she was probably still not a saint at the time of her writing this. This was God’s grace working in her to make her more like him.

Jesus revealed to her that she would be punished for her guilt, even though the sin was only a blip on her radar (conscience).

Of course, she was probably one who did works of reparation for herself and others, so the sentence could have been lifted for that sin; therefore, assuming the aforementioned, she would not have done any time in purgatory for that sin–neither after her death nor at the final judgement.

 

[Vico]

My question arose form the following excerpt from St. Faustina’s Diary:

Once I was summoned to the judgment [seat] of God. I stood alone before the Lord. Jesus appeared such as we know Him during His Passion. After a moment, His wounds disappeared except for five, those in His hands, His feet and His side. Suddenly I saw the complete condition of my soul as God sees it. I could clearly see all that is displeasing to God. I did not know that even the smallest transgressions will have to be accounted for. What a moment! Who can describe it? To stand before the Thrice-Holy God! Jesus asked me, Who are you? I answered, “I am Your servant, Lord.” You are guilty of one day of fire in purgatory.

The particular judgment occurs immediately after death at which time purgatory may be prescribed.

Catechism

1472 … sin has a double consequence . Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]

 

[MT1926]

I would recommend this audio book from a Time Staples.

Last Call: The Catholic Teaching On Death-Judgement-Heaven-Hell

Our sins are forgiven, so we went to heaven but will we be judged and then be punished again for those forgiven sins? That’s too sad, and I don’t think it is a true forgiveness that the God endows us.

This very subject is the reason I love the Church’s teaching on Pergatory. Judgement has two parts an eternal punishment and a temporal punishment. Think about a the son who was told to not play ball with the dog in the side yard. You guessed it the ball goes right through the window. The son says sorry to the father and the father forgives him. But the mess still needs to be cleaned up and the window needs replaced. Jesus died to forgive our sins not to clean up our messes. This is something that we need to do in this life. However, if we don’t fully clean up the mess and replace the window Jesus gave us Purgatory to help us finish the job before entering heaven.

I know to some this seems like the Catholic Church is making this up, but just think it through logically. God is our perfect Father. How perfect would an earthly father be if he kept cleaning up his kids messes and never made them lift a finger to help?

A father disciplines HIS children because he loves them and it is just.

On a final note I believe the main context here is

I did not know that even the smallest transgressions will have to be accounted for

To account for ones sins doesn’t necessarily mean to be punished again. To me what she could mean by this would be sin one yep I accounted for that window when I replaced it here on this date. Sin 2 was accounted for here, etc…sin 111113456789 oops I never got to replace that guys window, dear Jesus please purge this transgression from my soul so that I may enter heaven clean.

Hope this helps,

God Bless

 

[Mintaka]

Prescribe is exactly the word. Purgatory is like rehab or a hospital for a self-inflicted condition, or a partially self-inflicted one. If you went straight to heaven as a schlub, you would not be able to bear the full force of God’s love. So if you did not finish the rehab work on Earth, like a saint, you have to finish it in Heaven’s vestibule.

And because it is a cleansing and stripping off of gunk ideas and attitudes, as well as a form of reparation for bad temporal effects of sin, it is not all pleasant.

Tolkien’s story “Leaf by Niggle” is a good exploration of this simile.

 

[Mary888]

Nobody knows how God judges. The mechanism of His Judgement. Maybe these visions St. Faustina received were just to keep her in fear of God. Fear of God keeps people on the soft of His. For example read Psalm 25. And other Psalms.
The saints are people who wanted more and we should remember it and respect their extraordinary state. They received stranger visions because their struggle was above the ordinary effort of the faithful.
It comes as a logical conclusion of His forgiveness and the instructions He gave the Apostles that not only saints will be in Heaven after that Final Judgement.

Be at peace.
God bless!

 

[therese1998]

Jesus died to forgive our sins not to clean up our messes.

Exactly. Sin, as said prior, has a double effect. One, it bars us from Heaven. Two, it has consequences to ourselves and/or others (even when we don’t think it does). The passion of Christ opens Heaven for us when we are in a state of grace (after Confession). Purgatory is the means by which we deal with those consequences. That said, it is possible to make reparation on Earth. To use @MT1926’s analogy, an apology along with paying for and replacing the window and cleaning up the shattered glass and disposing of it would most likely be sufficient reparation. It’s more complicated than a straight 1:1 because our human mind is not the Divine mind and, so, we are not always so accurate at deciding how much impact our sin(s) have and what constitutes full reparation. This is a part of why we lean on Him…He will give us all graces necessary to achieve Heaven.

 

[incantator]

Thank you for all of your explanations. I asked this question since I was baffled that, if even St. Faustina was judged like that, what would become of me when I stand in front of God? I really wish I could go to heaven without being judged; I wish all of my sins are truly forgiven and purged here on Earth that I do not get embarrassed when I stand in front of Him. Indeed, the scene was probably written for us to remember the graveness of our sins and the final judgement. I can only pray that I can become clean and will not be judged, I guess…

 

[Convert3]

I think if you focused on your love for God and following His will, rather than worrying about yourself getting to heaven, you’ll be in a better place. Doing things with the intent of getting into heaven may be out of selfishness. Acts of love for others, following the teachings of Jesus, will be a selfless act.

 

[incantator]

I think if you focused on your love for God and following His will, rather than worrying about yourself getting to heaven, you’ll be in a better place. Doing things with the intent of getting into heaven may be out of selfishness. Acts of love for others, following the teachings of Jesus, will be a selfless act.

That’s a good point, though it’s not about going into heaven or not… It’s just that, you know, you thought your sin was forgiven and then if you still have to be punished that’s just sad, that’s it. But your recommendation seems to be on point, thank you

 

[Convert3]

I suggest you read “The Hungry Souls” by Gerard J.M. Van Den Aardweg. It’s an excellent book on purgatory and will help you understand it better.

 

[thistle]

I want to understand what is actually going to happen at the final judgement.

THE LAST JUDGMENT

CCC 1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

CCC 1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . “I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence.”

CCC 1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.

CCC 1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them “the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation.” It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come “to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed.”

 

[Vico]

Thank you for all of your explanations. I asked this question since I was baffled that, if even St. Faustina was judged like that, what would become of me when I stand in front of God? I really wish I could go to heaven without being judged; I wish all of my sins are truly forgiven and purged here on Earth that I do not get embarrassed when I stand in front of Him. Indeed, the scene was probably written for us to remember the graveness of our sins and the final judgement. I can only pray that I can become clean and will not be judged, I guess…

All are judged but only some are condemned. Any sin committed after baptism is due some punishment. The guilt of sin is pardoned in the sacrament of penance such that the person is again justified.

Catechism

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence , or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati) ; since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68

1446 Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification. The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as "the second plank [of salvation] after the shipwreck which is the loss of grace."47

 

[MT1926]

It’s just that, you know, you thought your sin was forgiven and then if you still have to be punished that’s just sad, that’s it

You need to try and break free of this thought process. Keep in mind that forgiveness does not automatically mean reconciliation. God desires to freely forgives we should also desire to reconcile ourselves with God and with one another.

As a father of 5 I can tell you first hand that if I only forgave my children and never delivered any punishment (making them clean up their own messes) I wouldn’t be a very good parent. Like God, I am not punishing the children because it is required for forgives and not because it makes me happy, on the contrary it makes me hurt all the more. I would much rather forgive and forget myself. But I am the father I have to do what is JUST. I have to let them clean up their own messes because it is the right thing to do.

I really wish I could go to heaven without being judged; I wish all of my sins are truly forgiven and purged here on Earth that I do not get embarrassed when I stand in front of Him

Your sins are truly forgiven, but the “purging” is up to you. You can do it now or you can do it later. But believe me you want to do that purging. A secret, that everyone knows but ignores every time they get together, is far more uncomfortable and embarrassing than bringing it to light saying sorry and reconciling so you can move on.

God Bless

 

[porthos11]

My question arose form the following excerpt from St. Faustina’s Diary:

Once I was summoned to the judgment [seat] of God. I stood alone before the Lord. Jesus appeared such as we know Him during His Passion. After a moment, His wounds disappeared except for five, those in His hands, His feet and His side. Suddenly I saw the complete condition of my soul as God sees it. I could clearly see all that is displeasing to God. I did not know that even the smallest transgressions will have to be accounted for. What a moment! Who can describe it? To stand before the Thrice-Holy God! Jesus asked me, Who are you? I answered, “I am Your servant, Lord.” You are guilty of one day of fire in purgatory.

I really, really, really dislike the medieval images of purgatory as punishment and fire and something to be soooo dreaded. I think that’s a great disservice to the doctrine and paints an unduly negative picture of God.

Purgatory is for the saved, and as such, the souls there have love for God and neighbour, even if imperfect and undergoing purification. Suffering can be admitted because purification is a cleansing from attachments, which, as with any self-denial, is painful. But just as we rejoice in penances voluntarily undertaken here on earth, I believe so too do we rejoice in our purification despite any discomfort we may experience in Purgatory.

the thing is that those in Purgatory possess charity, and so possess supernatural joy while anticipating God’s presence.

And further, I completely reject the notion of Purgatory as a prison. I would rather share the idea related by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. Purgatory is a waiting room of heaven, and the door to heaven is open and unlocked. God is there by that door beckoning you to enter. It is you, in your love for God, who would gladly say, “Not yet, Lord, I’m not completely purified yet. I will enter when I know I’m ready.”

And I would really caution against using saints’ diaries to form one’s understanding of Church teachings. These mystical visons are intensely personal and are often coloured by the visionaries’ own understanding and limitations. They are not meant to represent hard and fast facts on supernatural realities.

 

[incantator]

I suggest you read “The Hungry Souls” by Gerard J.M. Van Den Aardweg. It’s an excellent book on purgatory and will help you understand it better.

Thank you! The book was added to my wish list.

Thanks for informing me of the relevant Catechism.

Your sins are truly forgiven, but the “purging” is up to you. You can do it now or you can do it later. But believe me you want to do that purging. A secret, that everyone knows but ignores every time they get together, is far more uncomfortable and embarrassing than bringing it to light saying sorry and reconciling so you can move on.

Well, that is exactly what I’m saying here. I don’t mind being punished, it’s just that I want to be purged of my sins completely here.

I really, really, really dislike the medieval images of purgatory as punishment and fire and something to be soooo dreaded. I think that’s a great disservice to the doctrine and paints an unduly negative picture of God.

Purgatory is for the saved, and as such, the souls there have love for God and neighbour, even if imperfect and undergoing purification. Suffering can be admitted because purification is a cleansing from attachments, which, as with any self-denial, is painful. But just as we rejoice in penances voluntarily undertaken here on earth, I believe so too do we rejoice in our purification despite any discomfort we may experience in Purgatory.

the thing is that those in Purgatory possess charity, and so possess supernatural joy while anticipating God’s presence.

And further, I completely reject the notion of Purgatory as a prison. I would rather share the idea related by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. Purgatory is a waiting room of heaven, and the door to heaven is open and unlocked. God is there by that door beckoning you to enter. It is you, in your love for God, who would gladly say, “Not yet, Lord, I’m not completely purified yet. I will enter when I know I’m ready.”

And I would really caution against using saints’ diaries to form one’s understanding of Church teachings. These mystical visons are intensely personal and are often coloured by the visionaries’ own understanding and limitations. They are not meant to represent hard and fast facts on supernatural realities.

Well, I understand your point but IMHO their experience and what they’ve seen is incredibly valuable to us. They are the ones deeply loved by God, their experience with God is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Mintaka]

Um… Actually, it is Jesus who brought up the image of a debtor’s prison. (“to the very last coin”)

And fire comes from Paul, as a softened version of being tried in fire. (“saved as if through fire”, “our God is a consuming fire”)

And so on.

So yeah, we have a choice of imagery. But condemning stuff as medieval or just some dude’s idea… It can be very misleading and anti-Biblical. If we have several images of eschatological things, we can balance them against each other and get a better idea of the truth of the matter.