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chosen_people
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Do You Believe That The Church Stance That Supported Not Returning The Brothers To Their Surviving Relatives Was Correct From A Religious And Moral Point Of View?
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Church_Militant
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chosen_people
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There are many sources about the affair which can be found on the internet through any search engine. I was wary of chosing any since some are highly critical, while others see things through a different perspective. I feared that my chosing a particular site would immediately be seen as taking a stance, although my feelings on the matter may be easily surmised. At your request I have chosen a site. It gives a first hand account from a family member.Link to sources please sir?
Also, you don’t have to capitalize every word.
http://isurvived.org/2Postings/Finaly-affair.html
Needless to say, in my opinion, the affair has widespread underlying implications which I would like to discuss after receiving (name removed by moderator)ut from you as well as from others.
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scylla
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You are confusing actions of Church adherents to the Faith.
There is a difference, as every religious system has a mixture of good and bad people, what you should examine is official teachings.
This is like asking if it is wrong from a moral standpoint if a Priest killed someone. Of course bad actions are wrong, it is a no-brainer, but so what?
Who cares? If it is true or not, but anyways here is a copy of the answer…
Jewish Children after World War II: A Case Study
A short summary of the Finaly Affair, in which a Catholic woman took in two Jewish boys and kept them after World War II.
By Ronald Rychlak
Several commentators on the false Melloni document have referred to the Finaly affair, but few have offered details. Here they are:
On February 14, 1944, Gestapo agents entered the village of Tronche, France. They arrested two Jewish refugees from Austria, Fritz and Annie Finaly. The Finalys were never seen again. Their children (Robert, aged three and Gerald, aged two) were left behind.
A Catholic woman named Antoinette Brun took the two young boys into the Grenoble founding home, which she ran. Eventually she came to love them, and in 1945 she began the process to formally adopt the boys. In 1948, she had them baptized into the Catholic Church.
The boys parents were gone, but an aunt from New Zealand wrote a letter asking that they be sent to her. Brun resisted that overture, but in 1949 the Finaly family filed suit asking that the boys be sent to live with a different aunt in Israel.
The lawsuit went on for almost four years, and the evidence was conflicting. The boys’ late father had told friends that he wanted to have his sons brought up in France, but there was no clear evidence as to his (or their mother’s) religious wishes. For their part, the boys wanted to stay in France with Brun.
The French court ultimately sided with the Finaly relatives, but when the authorities went to pick up the boys, they were missing. Friends and supporters of Ms. Brun, including several Catholic priests and nuns, had spirited the boys off to Spain.
Several arrests were made, and according to Time magazine (March 16, 1953), French socialists used this as an opportunity to bash the Catholic Church. These Catholics, however, were not acting on behalf of the Church. Time also reported that Bishop Alexandre Calliot of Grenoble made a radio broadcast in which he demanded that anyone with information about the boys get in touch with the authorities. One of the first to comply was a priest in Spain who reported on the boys’ whereabouts.
Forty-eight hours after the final appeal was decided in favor of the Finaly family, a representative of Pierre Cardinal Gerlier, Archbishop of Lyon, made the final of several trips into Spain to find the boys. They were waiting in the home of a Spanish provincial governor, and the Church official helped bring them back to France.
Rather than having supported the “kidnapping” of the Finaly boys, as the November 7, 1955 issue of Time explained: “the Roman Catholic hierarchy had helped in getting the Finaly brothers back” to their Jewish relatives. Again, the critics got it wrong.
This after searching and finding it on beliefnetGod Bless
Scylla
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chosen_people
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Rather than having supported the “kidnapping” of the Finaly boys, as the November 7, 1955 issue of Time explained: “the Roman Catholic hierarchy had helped in getting the Finaly brothers back” to their Jewish relatives. Again, the critics got it wrong.
This after searching and finding it on beliefnetGod Bless
Scylla
Please read the first hand family account to understand how lopsided the article you quoted is:
isurvived.org/2Postings/Finaly-affair.html
The Children were born during WWII in vichy France. Despite the reprecussions they were circumsised by their parents and their parents expressed their wish to relatives that if anything should happen to them the children should be raised as Jews. If it had been their wish to baptize their children, either because of religious belief or for the children’s protection, nothing would have stopped them. The article by Rychlak which claims “there was no clear evidence as to his (or their mother’s) religious wishes” is not only incorrect but outright misleading.
The article you quote fails to mention that the letter written by the children’s Aunt to French authorities to have the children transfered to her care was sent in Febuary 1945 after the liberation of France and even before the end of the war. Mlle Brun not only did not return the children but with the help of Church officials did everything in her power to prevent the children being reunited with their relatives.
The article you quote fails to mention that the Children were sent off to live at boarding school and saw mlle Brun only on holidays. There is no basis for the claim that the children desired not to be reunited with their family and to say with Brun.
At no point did Church officials from the Vatican on down publicly state or in any way act for the return of the children to their relatives. The reverse is true. The children were hidden from the children’s relatives and from the French court in Catholic institutions by Catholic church officials including the Catholic College in Bayonne. The Church infact handled the legal case for Mlle. Brun against the children’s relatives…
In 1948, over three years after the children’s relatives turned to the French authorities to have the children reunited with their family, Mlle Brun had the minor children, at that time only six and seven years old, baptised even though Church officials and Mlle Brun knew full well that they were acting against the wishes of the children’s relatives and against the parent’s wishes who had died in the holocaust, The baptism of minor children under these circumstances can only be viewed as an attempt at forced conversion.
Some eight years after the children’s family requested to be reunited with them, after the children’s parents had been brutally murdered in the holocaust, after the children were hidden in Catholic institutions by Church officials from their relatives and from the French Court in an effort to prevent reunification, after Mlle Brun and the Church had the minor children baptised knowing full well they were acting against the deceased parents wishes and the wishes of the surviving relatives, after the Church carried out a legal battle for years to prevent the reunification of the children with their family, after not one Catholic official from the Pope on down decried the actions to prevent the children being returned with their family, the French Supreme Court made a final ruling that the Children were to be returned their relatives. The response was the kidnapping of the children across the French border to Spain by Catholic offficials. It was only at this time, in light of ever growing criticism of the Church in the press, that the Bishop Alexandre Calliot of Grenoble made a radio broadcast in which he demanded that anyone with information about the boys get in touch with the authorities. Having been kidnapped by Church officials they were miracuously found after only two days.
Those are the details of the case. As you can see the article you refer to is more than a little misleading. The aticle in beliefnet as to the Finaly affair correctly identifies that this affair has ramifications as to the possible validity of the Melloni document.
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scylla
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Oh well, I guess that proves that some Catholics sin.
Nothing new, and as I said before so what?
This is like saying black people are evil because some sin, of course the events described by you are wrong. Doesn’t mean anything, plenty of Catholics have done things that are wrong.
Forced conversion is against Catholic teaching so it is a no brainer that these Church officials did things against Catholic belief.
So from a Catholic point of view which is the only valid moral institution, yes these Church officials went against Catholic morality. If you would like to know more about morality feel free to look here at the Catechism which will explain the Catholic Church’s stance. Which frequently Catholics don’t pay attention to just like the rest of the world.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
The reason I might seem harsh is frequently bigots post articles like this thinking that actions of people define what is official teaching. If you are sincere then sorry for my tone and feel free to check out the link.
God Bless
Scylla
Nothing new, and as I said before so what?
This is like saying black people are evil because some sin, of course the events described by you are wrong. Doesn’t mean anything, plenty of Catholics have done things that are wrong.
Forced conversion is against Catholic teaching so it is a no brainer that these Church officials did things against Catholic belief.
So from a Catholic point of view which is the only valid moral institution, yes these Church officials went against Catholic morality. If you would like to know more about morality feel free to look here at the Catechism which will explain the Catholic Church’s stance. Which frequently Catholics don’t pay attention to just like the rest of the world.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
The reason I might seem harsh is frequently bigots post articles like this thinking that actions of people define what is official teaching. If you are sincere then sorry for my tone and feel free to check out the link.
God Bless
Scylla
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chosen_people
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Thank you for replying
I think it is superfluous to say how upseting the events are to me as a person of the Jewish faith.
I needed to hear that from a Catholic standpoint that the events described are not to be condoned. You have given me the answer.
It was not my purpose to be disparaging in any way. Ironically, I decided to start the thread in reaction to the article you quoted, and its inaccuracies. I often get the feeling that instead of facing past mistakes and correcting them, there is an effort by that particular internet site to obfuscate…
I have a personal connection with the issue of forced conversion. My grandmothers great great great great great greatgrandfather is an historical Jewish martyr, a village rabbi, who was given the choice of forced conversion to Christianity or death. When he refused he was burnt alive at the stake
As indicated there are ramifications to the Finaly case because of a document which has come to light which would seem to indicate Vatican policy at the time was to try and not return children whose parents had perished in the holocaust to their surviving relatives.
That having been said, no one can or should deny that the taking in of Jewish children by Catholic famalies and Church institutions during the Holocaust saved hundreds of thousands of lives.
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scylla
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Thanks for your answer, yes the events are not to be condoned.
I am glad you realized that those who followed Catholic teaching are the ones remembered for standing up for truth and saving lives of many Jews.
Those who denied Catholic teaching (even officials) are deservingly denounced and not examples of what Catholicism truly teaches.
God Bless
Scylla
I am glad you realized that those who followed Catholic teaching are the ones remembered for standing up for truth and saving lives of many Jews.
Those who denied Catholic teaching (even officials) are deservingly denounced and not examples of what Catholicism truly teaches.
God Bless
Scylla
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Church_Militant
Guest
As indicated there are ramifications to the Finaly case because of a document which has come to light which would seem to indicate Vatican policy at the time was to try and not return children whose parents had perished in the holocaust to their surviving relatives.
That having been said, no one can or should deny that the taking in of Jewish children by Catholic families and Church institutions during the Holocaust saved hundreds of thousands of lives.May Ha’Shem take him into His bosom forever.
Just like the Mother and her 7 sons recounted in the book of Maccabees.
Shalom Elechim.
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