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O.S.Luke
Guest
I was referring to the politics of Saxony, not the polity of the Church.
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Keep reading:So when the same Irenaeus says that what the Apostles taught oral had then been recorded in Scripture is he telling us what the Living Tradition of the Church was at that time?
newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm
But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth.
Once again, keep reading:Or when Irenaeus says that the Eucharist consists of two realities is he giving the belief of the Church at that time?
newadvent.org/fathers/0103418.htm
The “two realities” noted by St. Irenaeus are the “sensible” reality (it looks, tastes, and acts like bread and wine) and the Real reality (that it is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord).He has acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as His own blood, from which He bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of the creation) He has established as His own body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.
I have yet to see any of St. Irenaeus’ writings that disagree with the Church.Or does Irenaeus only witness to the truth when he agrees with the modern Catholic view?
Honestly, in many cases, it depends on the ECF being quoted. Origen and Tertullian attest faithfully to many distinctively Catholic doctrines, but we know that they both fell into heresy later in life. Therefore, we have to be careful when reading them.Unfortunately there seems to be a double standard among some Catholic apologists when it comes to the church fathers. If a church father says something that is supportive of a Catholic position, he represents the views of the Church on that matter, whatever else he may have written that doesn’t agree.
The issue with Protestants using the ECFs in support of their position is that the quotation is usually taken well out of context, and the remainder of that Father’s writings on the subject in question are ignored. Even more telling regarding the duplicity of some Protestant apologists is the fact that several distinctively Catholic doctrines are affirmed every single time they are mentioned by the faithful Early Fathers, yet these are passed off as being evidence of the “corruption” of the early Church.However if a Protestant cites a church father, or even several, in support of a Protestant or non-Catholic view, then that church father is said not to be infallible and not to represent the views of the Church.
There is nothing contrary to the Catholic faith in those statements.So when the same Irenaeus says that what the Apostles taught oral had then been recorded in Scripture is he telling us what the Living Tradition of the Church was at that time?
newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm
Or when Irenaeus says that the Eucharist consists of two realities is he giving the belief of the Church at that time?
newadvent.org/fathers/0103418.htm
Or does Irenaeus only witness to the truth when he agrees with the modern Catholic view?
I think it says what it says in 963-975.What do you think the CCC says about Mary?
So obviously I will need to look elsewhere for a delineation of the evidence that the OP references.And I answered that your question is based on a false premise in the way you are asking it.
b/c it demonstrates (to me) a certain double standard that you possess….a Protestant’s request for a delineation of the beliefs that a RC referenced is a bad thing, but the RCC’s production of a list of beliefs in a Catechism is a good thing. The matter is rather simple. An assertion was made concerning belief. As such, I am only looking for a clear description of the belief that made the church catholic for the first 1500. If such a description is not available, then the claim can’t be verified by evidence and is merely a dodgy opinion.I don’t know why you are assuming this.
and I am a historian which is why I want some historical evidence….particularly when the OP claims the RC’s have such historical evidence with regard to their beliefs.I am not an apologist. I am a catechist.
I am not asking “whys”. I am asking “whats”. What distinct beliefs? What specific passages in scripture? What is the earliest historical evidence for the distinct belief? I want the beliefs to be specified (so that we can know what we are talking about) and then I want the evidence (so that the assertion can be evaluated). It is that simple.Apologetics is a nice endeavour, but I have found that the best way to approach these kinds of things is to engender an understanding of the premises that underly the Catholic faith Tradition. If consensus can be reached on this issue, then one can move to a discussion of understanding the “why’s” that you are asking.
Hopefully now you understand that I am looking for evidence…something that can be examined with a bit of objectivity.You seem to be looking for some sort of proof texts.
This sounds like it would be so subjective that it would be of no use in determining that validity of the OP’s assertion. It might be an interesting discussion, but it is not something that interests me at the moment. Cheers.Faith doesn’t work that way because faith is based in a relationship that synthesizes into expressions of belief based on that lived experience. It isn’t the other way around.
This is ridiculous. Anyone can read. What do you think it means. When you read something you internalize and interpret it.I think it says what it says in 963-975.
At this point, neither do your posts. If you want this list, as a historian, you should already have them.It might be an interesting discussion, but it is not something that interests me at the moment. Cheers.
My opinion is you likely have never read Ireneaus and no very little about him…So when Irenaeus in the 2nd century said, “he who does not hold to the See of Peter, can He really believe that he is in the Church?” what, IYO, did he mean?
Which of his beliefs? you realise his view on the; eucharist, canon, veneration of images and the trinity were different than current catholic doctrine, right.?Read Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical history from the 4th century. It is extant and can be found online. It clearly spells out the unanimous belief of the universal Church that is founded upon the Tradition of the Apostles and handed on to the Bishops that were appointed and laid hands upon in an unbroken succession.
Well that explains why it’s so difficult to nail down the definition for the “unanimous consent of the fathers”Unfortunately there seems to be a double standard among some Catholic apologists when it comes to the church fathers. If a church father says something that is supportive of a Catholic position, he represents the views of the Church on that matter, whatever else he may have written that doesn’t agree.
However if a Protestant cites a church father, or even several, in support of a Protestant or non-Catholic view, then that church father is said not to be infallible and not to represent the views of the Church.
Exactly, I have my resources. As such, I am rather certain that what the OP is really declaring is that:If you want this list, as a historian, you should already have them.
Well, at least you’re consistent in that the way you have described the situation is not what Catholics believe.*. *(In this regard, you Protestants must grant the RC the right to categorize any variation between a very early belief and a current belief as merely a development as opposed to a man-made innovation. You must further grant that the development was divinely inspired on the basis that the RCC is the church that Christ established and that he promised to keep its doctrines pure. Finally, you must disregard the circularity that exists at this point.)
Oh really? You know, it should be so easy for you to prove me wrong on this. All you would have to do is show me the:Well, at least you’re consistent in that the way you have described the situation is not what Catholics believe.
My real purpose is to require the OPster to actually produce the evidence that he claims the RCC has to support his assertion. This should be obvious from my repeated requests. He doesn’t seem to want to produce the evidence. You can’t or won’t. If the fact was so patently obvious as the OP suggests, it should be very easy to produce that evidence.I think that pretty much gives me the answer about your real purpose in this thread.