The First Commandment

[Omyo12]

I was curious, exactly what the second part of the first commandment (second commandment for protestants) means by “graven images” in:

Exodus 20:
1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

I’d like to focus on verse 4,

The statues of Saints and the Blessed Virgin are in their likeness, yes? Aren’t they in Heaven? So aren’t they graven images?

I know that these statues are not worshiped, but isn’t the very act of making them a sin?

Also, what about the act of giving roses to a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe?

I’ve been asked these questions by many non-Catholics and have trouble answering confidently.

 

[PJM]

=Omyo12;5332429]I was curious, exactly what the second part of the first commandment (second commandment for protestants) means by “graven images” in:

Exodus 20:
1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

I’d like to focus on verse 4,

**Exdosus 25: * 18 “And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.” ***

Keep in Mind this is God Himself giving instructions on how the Ark of the Covenant is to be built. “Cherubim” are statues of angels. So what is going on here?

One is always at great risk whenever one “culls” only a short verse or bible passage.

What is being said here is "thou shalt NOT have STRANGE gods before me. That is the Commandment, that is the message, with further verbage to help solidify the point. Saying it differenty; “don’t WORSHIP” anyone, anything but Me!

What I shared from Exo. 25 is clear and indispuitable evidence of what I am sharing! The “additional vebage” is the key to your question about statues, Ect.

All of the expressions in the First Commandment deal with WORSHIP. Worship, is to be reserved for “God alone!” and in the RCC this is precisely the position we teach and hold to.

The statues of Saints and the Blessed Virgin are in their likeness, yes? Aren’t they in Heaven? So aren’t they graven images?

I know that these statues are not worshiped, but isn’t the very act of making them a sin?

No, the states you speak of are NOT graven images! And why not, you ask?

Because they are not [at least not supposed to be replacements for God, but with a Billion RC’s certainly some are abusing and not understanding proper Catholic practice], God replacements; indeed the very opposite is the truth. They are reminders to us of people who loved God sufficiently to gain heaven. We hope to emulate their actions, and pray THROUGH them, to ask God to grant us sufficient graces, so that we too may join them in heaven.

Also, what about the act of giving roses to a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Is this an act of reverence, of love, admiration, respect? Indeed it is; is not however in any way,shape or form WORSHIP! That is neother the entent, nor the result.

I’ve been asked these questions by many non-Catholics and have trouble answering confidently.

Love and prayers, remember Exo. 25

Pat

 

[LilyM]

Most translations don’t say ‘graven’ images - they simply say ‘likeness’. Which if taken utterly literalistically would mean that photographs of your loved ones, or portrait paintings, are verboten. And indeed, it is difficult to see why statues would be singled out as opposed to other images such as paintings, which are just as likely to be worshipped.

Then there’s the issue of other statues - Degas made a famous one of a teenage dancer which was a statue of a real girl, and you can be sure Rodin also used a real model for ‘The Thinker’ or Michelangelo for ‘David’. So these can all said to be ‘graven images’, let alone ‘likenesses’.

But then God Himself orders the bronze serpent to be made, and it is only destroyed much later when people start to worship it. He goes further and orders carved cherubim (certainly a likeness of a thing in heaven!) on the very Ark of the Covenant itself! So clearly it’s not the mere act of making them that is the problem.

As for putting flowers in front of a statue of the Blessed Virgin - again, people put flowers on the graves of their loved ones, and gravestones often have a picture of the deceased - not to mention statues of angels or other carved likenesses.

 

[PJM]

Most translations don’t say ‘graven’ images - they simply say ‘likeness’. Which if taken utterly literalistically would mean that photographs of your loved ones, or portrait paintings, are verboten. And indeed, it is difficult to see why statues would be singled out as opposed to other images such as paintings, which are just as likely to be worshipped.

Then there’s the issue of other statues - Degas made a famous one of a teenage dancer which was a statue of a real girl, and you can be sure Rodin also used a real model for ‘The Thinker’ or Michelangelo for ‘David’. So these can all said to be ‘graven images’, let alone ‘likenesses’.

But then God Himself orders the bronze serpent to be made, and it is only destroyed much later when people start to worship it. He goes further and orders carved cherubim (certainly a likeness of a thing in heaven!) on the very Ark of the Covenant itself! So clearly it’s not the mere act of making them that is the problem.

As for putting flowers in front of a statue of the Blessed Virgin - again, people put flowers on the graves of their loved ones, and gravestones often have a picture of the deceased - not to mention statues of angels or other carved likenesses.

Great post.

I forgot about the gold snake:blush:

Thanks for reminding me

 

[Nita]

I was curious, exactly what the second part of the first commandment (second commandment for protestants) means by “graven images” in:

Exodus 20:
1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

It’s necessary to read the verses together. The commandment doesn’t end after verse 4. Verse 5 is critical to a proper understanding of what constitutes the strange gods which God is forbidding us to have.

God forbids us to have strange gods in verse 3. In verse 5 He identifies when a “graven thing” becomes a “strange god”. We are not to make images for the purpose of adoring and serving them. That is when graven images become the sinful objects that are forbidden in the first commandment.

 

[patrick457]

As pointed out by others, the commandment does NOT end at verse 4 (especially considering that there are chapters and verses did not exist when the books of the Bible were written).

1: And Elohim spoke all these words, saying,
2: “I am YHWH, your God, who brought you out of Mitzraim, from the house of slaves.
3: There must not be for you other gods upon my face.
4: You shall not make for yourself a pesel, or any* temunah* that is in the heavens above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the waters below the earth.
5: You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, YHWH your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the sons, and upon the third and upon the fourth of those who hate me,*
6: but showing khesed to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.”

Pesel: From the verb pasal, “to hew [into shape]”, “fashion by cutting” or “to carve”). Biblical usages of the word would suggest a sort of image hewn from stone or cut from wood (later, also those cast from metal). Most occurrences of the noun pesel in the Old Testament generally takes it to mean a sort of cultic image and occurs almost exclusively in the context of references to imagery, hence some modern translations choose to render this word as “idol”.

Temunah: Hebrew for “image”, “form” or “likeness” (cf. Deuteronomy 4:12, 15-16, 23, 25; Job 4:16), this refers to the mental pattern from which the pesel is constructed. If this is to stand as a second object to the verb, then the verb itself takes a slightly different nuance here. It would convey “you shall not make an idol, neither shall you conceive a form/likeness” for worship. Some simply make the second word qualify the first; i.e. “you shall not make an idol in the form of…”.

Jealous (qana’): The same word often translated “zeal” or “zealous.” The word describes a passionate intensity to protect or defend something that is jeopardized. God’s zeal or jealousy is to protect Hs people or His institutions or His honor, which is bound up with the life of His people.

As is pointed out, some chapters after this God says to Moses:

"You shall make a kapporet *of pure gold; two 'ammah and a half shall be its length, and an 'ammah and a half its width. And you shall make two kheruvim of gold; make them of hammered metal at the two ends of the kapporet. Make one kheruv *at one end, and the other *kheruv at the other end; from the kapporet you shall make the kheruvim on the two ends. The kheruvim shall have their wings spread upward, screening the kapporet with their wings, and their faces are a man toward his brother; towards the kapporet shall be the faces of the kheruvim.

You shall put the* kapporet on top of the Ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you - from the kapporet*, from between the two* kheruvim that are over the Ark of the Testimony - about all that I will command you for the sons of Israel."

-Exodus 25:17-22

“You shall also make a lampstand of pure gold; the lampstand shall be of hammered metal. Its shaft, its branches, its cups, its bulbs, and its blossoms will be from it. And six branches shall come out from the sides of it, three branches of the lampstand from one side, and three branches of the lampstand from the other side.
Three cups shaped like almond blossoms are to be on one branch, a bulb and a blossom, and three cups shaped like almond blossoms are to be on the next branch, a bulb and a blossom - and thus for the six branches that come out of the lampstand.
On the lampstand there are to be four cups shaped like almond blossoms, its bulbs and its blossoms, with a bulb under the two branches of the same, and a bulb under the two branches of the same, and a bulb under the two branches of the same, according to the six branches that come out of the lampstand. Their bulbs and their branches shall be from it, all of it one hammered piece of pure gold. You shall make its seven lamps, and he shall bring up its lamps that they give light in front of it. Its snuffers and its trays are to be of pure gold. It shall be made of a kikkar of pure gold, with all these utensils. And see and make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

-Exodus 25:31-40

“The mishkan itself you are to make with ten curtains of twisted fine linen and blue and purple and scarlet; with kheruvim - work of a designer - you shall make them…
*You are to make a *parokhet of blue, purple, and scarlet yarn, and twisted fine linen; it shall be made with kheruvim, the work of a designer.**”

-Exodus 26:1, 31

If we are to take the commandment above that we should NOT make or create anything carved, engraved, or hewn (‘graven’), then God would also be violating His law when He did thus:

And when He had accomplished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of Elohim.

-Exodus 31:18

Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of the Testimony were in his hand, tablets written on both their sides - on one side and on the other were they written. And the tablets were the work of Elohim, and the writing was the writing of Elohim, engraved on the tablets.

-Exodus 32:15-16

 

[budgie2]

I don’t think we’re supposed to live according to this today regarding paintings, statues etc. and it is out of date teaching as LilyM said. Muslims live according to this teaching and their art is made up of calligraphy. I think there’s part of the Quran in the New Testament and Christ never forbade us to make an image of things on Earth and in heaven.

I don’t know where it comes from in the Gospel, but Jesus apparently forbade it also but there are stray verses in the New and Old Testament.

 

[patrick457]

(continued)

The bronze/copper serpent is apparently already mentioned in this thread, but here is the story of that image’s creation:

Then they traveled from Mount Hor by the road to the Yam Suph, to go around the land of Edom, but the soul of the people became impatient on the way. And the people spoke against Elohim and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Mitzraim to die in the wilderness? For there is no bread nor water, and our souls loathe this worthless food!” So YHWH sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
The people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against YHWH and you; intercede to YHWH that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. YHWH said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a signal pole. And it shall be that anyone who is bitten - when he looks at it, he shall live.” So Moses made a copper serpent and placed it on a signal pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the copper serpent, he lived.
Now the sons of Israel moved on and camped in Oboth.

-Numbers 21:4-10​

Of course it was later destroyed when the image led people to idolatry by worshipping it:

Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea ben-Elah, king of Israel, that Hezekiyah ben-Ahaz, king of Judah, began to reign. He was twenty-five years when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. The name of his mother was Avi bat-Zakaryah. He did what was proper in the eyes of YHWH, according to all which David his father had done. He eliminated the high places, smashed the pillars to bits, and cut down the Asherah, and crushed to pieces the copper serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it - it was called Nehushtan.

-2 Kings 18:1-4

Finally, the furnishings of the Temple of Solomon were thus:

In the Devir he made two kheruvim of olive wood, each ten 'ammah high. Five 'ammah was the first wing of the kheruv, and five 'ammah was the second wing of the kheruv, ten 'ammah from the tips of his wings to the tips of his wings. And ten 'ammah was the second kheruv - the two kheruvim had one measurement and one shape. The height of the one kheruv was ten 'ammah; and so was the second kheruv. He put the kheruvim in the midst of the inner house; and spread out were the wings of the kheruvim, so that the wing of the one was touching the wall, and the wing of the other kheruv was touching the other wall. And their wings were in the middle of the room, touching wing to wing. Also he overlaid the kheruvim with gold.
On all the walls around the House round about, he carved engravings of carvings of kheruvim, palm trees, and open flowers, inside and out. And the floor of the House he overlaid with gold, inside and out.
For the entrance of the Devir he made doors of olive wood; the pillar, doorposts, a fifth part. On the two doors made of olive wood he carved carvings of kheruvim, palm trees, and open flowers, and he overlaid with gold; and he beat the gold on the cherubs and the palm trees. And thus he did at the entrance of the Heikal, doorposts of olive wood, from a fourth.
And two doors of cypress wood; two of the leaves of the one door were folding, and two of the curtains (sic, corruption of “leaves”) of the other door were folding. He carved kheruvim, palm trees, and open flowers and overlaid them with gold; evenly applied on the carvings.
And he built the inner court with three rows of hewn stone and a row of hewn cedar beams.

-1 Kings 6:23-36

 

[patrick457]

(continued)

The decorations, as they were described, were apparently quite similar to what can be found in a number of other Ancient Near Eastern temples and iconography:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
An 8th century BC ivory box from Nimrud depicting a hybrid lotus-papyrus plant with palm branches, flanked by human-headed winged sphinxes (equivalent to the Biblical cherubim?).

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Drawing of a 8th-7th century BC Phoenician platter found in Greece, depicting sphinxes and the lotus-papyrus hybrid.

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Detail of a 5th century BC tablet found in South Arabia, again depicting sphinxes and date palms.

http://www.medinaportal.net/portal/multimedia/image/8qj3d6fxsrk0r.jpg
A sphinx from the Syro-Hittite temple of Ain Dara (10th-8th century BC) in Syria.

http://theoldgiftshop.com/images/replica/M003S2.jpg
Relief from Nimrud showing Assyrian king Ashur-nasir-pal II (reigned 884-859 BC) facing a stylized sacred tree (a palm conbined with vines) and flanked by winged deities.

Yet, despite these “graven images” influenced by the iconography of their neighbors (and some others that Solomon had comissioned; cf. 1 Kings 7), the book tells us:

The priests brought the Ark of the Covenant of YHWH to its place, into the Devir of the House, the Holy of Holies, under the wings of the kheruvim. For the kheruvim spread out their wings over the place of the Ark, so that the kheruvim screened the Ark and its poles from above. The poles were so long that the heads of the poles could be seen from the Holy Place in front of the Devir, but they could not be seen outside. And they are there to this day. Nothing was in the Ark save the two tablets of stone which Moses had laid there at Horeb, when YHWH made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Mitzraim.
And it came to pass, when the priests came out of the holy place, a cloud filled the House of YHWH. The priests were not able to stand to serve because of the cloud; the glory of YHWH filled the House of YHWH. Then Solomon said, "YHWH said He would dwell in the thick darkness. I have built you an exalted House, a place for you to dwell in forever."

-1 Kings 8:6-12